[0xy]

London beats any European city by a substantial amount, even including cost of living. I don't see why that would change. Switzerland as you point out has similarly high wages.

I can't see innovation, talent or companies moving to the EU at any stage. It's a regulatory horror show and has massive brain drain to places that actually pay developers reasonable wages.

Developers in Sweden are paid the equivalent of 51k USD. This means even including cost of living such as health insurance, you can make substantially more in the US, London or Switzerland.

Developers in the EU get shafted big time. Free health insurance is not worth half, or even one-third the salary.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have a much healthier startup scene than the UK does. You can also go further afield and explore places like Lisbon, which have a growing buzz.

In some ways they have a much healthier startup scene than SV does.

You won't earn $400k - guaranteed until the restructuring and breakup layoffs hit - but you will be happier and less stressed, and your kids will be too. And you won't be living in a city that has become a dystopian nightmare.

If you're all about the money then of course you won't get what's cool about the EU.

And that's fine. Because not only do companies have cultural fit, so do countries.

[0xy]

I don't think you can speak for everyone when you claim not to care about literally millions of dollars in lost opportunity by not living in a country that doesn't shaft you.

It's millions. The delta between the average US salary and the average EU salary is gigantic, and if invested in a conservative investment portfolio consisting of index funds means by choosing to live in the EU you're willingly giving up many millions of dollars by time you're in retirement.

When I'm retired, I don't want to be broke and penniless and I certainly wouldn't be thinking that the free healthcare I received was worth the amount I was scammed.

On what planet is healthcare worth many millions of dollars? It's not worth it. You're better off by any calculation in the US. Substantially so.

51k when you're doing the same stuff that someone in the US is making 175k for? You're being robbed in broad daylight.

To put it another way, consider that a senior level developer in Sweden makes substantially less than a fresh grad in the US.

[sofixa]

> When I'm retired, I don't want to be broke and penniless and I certainly wouldn't be thinking that the free healthcare I received was worth the amount I was scammed.

> On what planet is healthcare worth many millions of dollars? It's not worth it. You're better off by any calculation in the US. Substantially so.

You're missing pensions, which EU countries have, which mean in most cases you won't find yourself broke and penniless when you retire. And work hours, which are substantially less. And vacation time, which is literally multiple times more ( 5 weeks paid minimum in France for instance), and "unlimited sick time" ( it's sick there's even such a concept in the US). What good are your millions if you have to wait to retirement to actually use them, being too busy working 60 hour weeks? Or having to go into work sick? Or ffs, after the birth of a child?

[Ma8ee]

All senior developers I know make significantly more than 51000.

Yeah, other people in other countries make more money, and it was a competition for who is richest when they die, Sweden would really suck. But I really enjoy my life here, and I don’t plan to wait until I retire to do that. (And I lived abroad for five years, including 2 years in the US, so I have something to compare with).

[ben_w]

Throughout my career, people have told me I don’t earn enough, that I can get paid more.

Ok, but I’m still wealthier in my 30s than most people are when they retire — my biggest regret in life to date is not having a family, not the even bigger pile of money I could’ve earned if I’d gone to Silicon Valley or invested £10k into BTC in May 2010.

[Ma8ee]

As a developer in Stockholm in a not particularly exciting big company in a not particularly exciting position I making about $80000. I have daycare for my two kids within 200 meter from my home, and I pay less than $200 per month and kid for that. I have a safe bicycle commute that takes less than half an hour. I have the forest behind the house. In my area kids as young as 7 roam around without direct supervision on their bicycles. Im currently on paid (ok, it doesn’t cover 100% of my salary, but enough) parental leave and will be for another three months. After that I will probably use my legal right to work 80% while the kids are small. And of course free healthcare.

I know that this is far from what everyone wants, and wasn’t what I looked for 10 years ago, but for me, now, it is almost perfect. And I don’t think there’s many places in the world I can live like this.

[patrickdet]

> Developers in the EU get shafted big time. Free health insurance is not worth half, or even one-third the salary.

It’s called solidarity

[0xfaded]

No, it's called getting shafted. The EU has more or less the same wealth floating around as any other western country, but it's in total stagnation.

We can argue about why this is, but the end result is that asset prices are high, while there's no incentive to cycle money through the economy in a way that allows wealth building.

Not even the government is willing to spend, which is a problem because the government has set itself up to be the subsidizer of everything. The scale of the problem is easily appearant when you see Brussels celebrating a €10b climate package. Exactly what is €20 per citizen supposed to achieve?

[ben_w]

The EU isn’t a country, it’s a free trade area with a relatively small (normally just roughly 1% GDP) fund to help the weaker regions inside it.

[sharpneli]

The money saved does not go into the healthcare. The healthcare is paid from taxes paid from salaries etc. So the bigger the salary the more funding for healthcare.

I’m not complaining about the situation. Supply and demand determines IT wages quite well. For some reason US based devs are simply more in demand.

[thr0waway2]

Financiers in London are paid similar to financiers in NYC, it's not about solidarity, it's about supply and demand. And forces of supply and demand are not working in developers' favour in European countries. I myself switched from being a quant dev to a trader within a large bank (and now a fund) and the work is a lot more interesting/rewarding and better paid.

[morlockabove]

After this year, I've had more than enough of 'solidarity'.