[hnlmorg]

> Taiwanese people aren’t obedient. You should see how they drive.

...

> They wear masks without flaking out about it as slavery or being against their will or whatever nonsense you guys are on about back home in the west.

The 2nd part is what the GP was talking about with regards to 'obedience'. In some western countries like the US and UK, even the simple request for individuals to wear a mask is seen by some as an infringement on their human rights. There are literally documents floating around social media in the UK citing the Magna Carta[1] as a legal document for why they are entitled not to have their temperature checked!

Granted these people are idiots. But unfortunately the UK and US has also fostered a culture where everyone's voice is deemed equal, even the idiots. A classic example of this was during the EU referendum with the oft quoted phrase "why should we trust those so call experts?" as a retort against financial analysts voicing their concerns.

The problem is when you have research demoted to the same level as hearsay, a general distrust of the government and mix in a large does of fear due to economical, political and/or social unrest, you end up in an environment where those aforementioned idiots end up recruiting more idiots into their cause.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

[kinghtown]

Nah, Taiwanese people view the masks as protection against germs and pollution. I understand the context of suggesting they are obedient but I still disagree with that. Chalking it up to obedience in a way takes agency from them- they choose to wear masks because they know that they work and the government is enforcing their use as well. They don’t wear them because they are merely told to. It’s plain to everyone here that America is handling the virus poorly because most Americans are miseducated or retarded and refuse to take simple precautions because they are uncomfortable or inconvenient. Also there are severe leadership issues in America and no healthcare. It’s the perfect storm of fucking up. Taiwanese people have zero interest in modelling any policies in place in America. Most people here think the country is fundamentally broken.

[hnlmorg]

The point I was making is that many Americans and English folk intentionally don't wear masks because the government told them to.

I'm not suggesting that Taiwanese people blindly do as their told but rather that some of the US and UK population intentionally do the opposite to what they're told simply as an act of defiance....sorry "freedom".

[ethbr0]

> UK and US has also fostered a culture where everyone's voice is deemed equal, even the idiots

I've thought about this a lot as the pandemic and reaction unfolded. My feeling is that it's a little more nuanced.

From my perspective, it goes like this: (a) politics co-opts science, and (some) scientists become political (for career reasons), (b) political news media puts narrative-supporting "experts" on a pedestal (to reinforce their credibility), (c) people are told they lack the intelligence / knowledge / ability to ever be an expert, (d) people feel internal, unrealized shame at their ignorance, (e) people attempt to cover that shame by posing as experts for their peers, in fact just parroting whatever sound-bites they heard without critical thought, (f) rational debate drastically decreases, as critical thinking skills and underlying understanding have atrophied.

The net result: removal of critical thinking in the public, increased partisanship and anger, and a decreased ability of the public to dismiss crackpots posing as experts.

Recommended response: learn about the actual underlying issues, then (gently, remember (d)!) turn conversations to apolitical explorations of the underlying issues and truths.

[hnlmorg]

I think far it's simpler than that: people just generally don't like to have their ideals challenged. Worse still is that politicians and the press back research when it suits their narrative and dismiss it when it contradicts their narrative. Which creates a precedence for "free thinkers" to also accept or reject any evidence that falls outside of their own chosen narrative.

Social media compounds things here because it allows people do get swallowed into this world of like minded people (aka the "echo chamber").

There's a fair amount on Wikipedia about the psychology at play which causes this. There's names for it all, all of which I can't recall because I've hit the Christmas spirits. Hopefully someone sober can be more helpful than I.