[LordNight]

>A lot of people watch it with no background knowledge and subsequently don’t quite understand the “best film ever” label, but Citizen Kane is indeed a fantastic film. Just read about Orson Welles first.

Interesting. About 10 years ago I was tired of modern cinema and completely stopped watching new films. After some pause I decided to start watching classic cinema from 1930 onward in more or less chronological order (in the last year i've stopped at ~1800 movies, up to 1995).

In general, the quality of 1932-1942 american cinema (and, to a lesser degree, 1945-1950) far exceeded my expectations. And, while Citizen Kane is a very good film and deserves to be seen (it was actually one of the few "critically acclaimed" classic films that I've actually enjoyed), but when seen in context of what was filmed at the time, Citizen Kane doesn't really stand out among its contemporaries that much. A lot of technical details (but not all) that are praised by modern critics were more or less a common thing back at the time. I'd argue that Kane wasn't even the best film of the 1941 year (Sullivan's Travel was better and H.M. Pulham, Esq its equal) and definitely not the best film of the 1930-1950 "golden age" that ended at a very high point with Sunset Blvd. before plunging into the abyss in 1950s.

That's all of course only my opinion.

On a related note, if you enjoyed Citizen Kane, I'd highly recommend to see a soviet film from 1962 Nine Days in One Year. One of the most visually stunning b/w films in my experience. Thematically different, but stylistically very similar.

[keiferski]

Sure, I’m not sure I’d actually call it the Best Film Ever, but it is a great movie. Part of its importance, compared to some of the other movies you’ve mentioned, is the story of how it got made / that it got made at all. Welles had zero film experience, yet was fully funded, and the movie itself was a direct attack on one of the single most powerful men of the era. Welles himself was a larger-than-life character and that’s probably half the reason we are still talking about Kane. Art isn’t created in a vacuum, after all.

I’m not sure what a modern equivalent would look like, but imagine a $200 million studio film that eloquently attacks the heads of CNN, The NY Times, and another half-dozen top media firms. That sort of thing would never get made today.

Thanks for the other suggestion though, I’ll look into it for sure!

[david927]

> I’m not sure I’d actually call it the Best Film Ever

Most critics would, though. And I've never heard that its importance is in any way tied to its production. Welles took film from "filmed stage plays" and literally opened up the genre. He ripped up floorboards to get the right perspective. He innovated direction right and left.

The only aspect of the film being about Hearst was that its debut was canned, distribution was shot, and he would never (really) be allowed to make another film again.

[treis]

I've started doing the same thing and recommend Witness for the Prosecution highly. Rear Window, Paths of Glory, and North by Northwest are others that have held up to modern eyes, IMHO.

[akhilcacharya]

I go back to watching North by Northwest every few months. The writing, the sets, the cinematography, the music and the acting all sublime. One of my favorite random facts is that Albert R Broccoli initially wanted to get Cary Grant for the first Bond film, but the producers ended up deciding to get a younger actor.

[throw0101a]

> In general, the quality of 1932-1942 american cinema (and, to a lesser degree, 1945-1950) far exceeded my expectations.

Survivorship bias? I'm sure there was as much schlock produced back then as there is now, it's just we elevated the best and have forgotten the rest.

Revisiting the bad stuff is the entire premise of MST3K:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

[tsimionescu]

People often claim survivorship bias for such things, and it may sometimes be true, but I think it often misses the point. It may be true that overall, the landscape of an art form wasn't much different than today. However, it is obviously plausible that the "highest highs" would be higher in some period X than some period Y - it would be actually much more surprising if an art form were of uniform quality across many decades.

I don't have enough cinema culture to comment on cinema specifically, but I believe this is pretty obvious in music. Comparing things like Beethoven's 5th and 9th symphonies to any modern music (especially if comparing only the main themes, given today's preference for very short form music), it's obvious that there is nothing similar, and even modern audiences generally recognize the superiority of the older one.

As a more focused comparison, it's also obvious and largely uncontroversial that the amount of good rock music being produced has plummeted since at least the 1970s-1980s. There are still a few good bands (Rammstein has been an unexpected highlight for me), but compared to a period when you had Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, Black Sabbath, Queen, Deep Purple, Metallica, The Rolling Stones and a good many others, it's obvious that something has gone down in the highest highs of music.

[LordNight]

Well, I myself is an avid concert goer (before Covid at least) and I probably know more about classical music than I do about classical cinema :-) Although I mostly prefer music written c. 1900-1950 rather than Beethoven or his contemporaries (what a lot of people don't realise is that there were a lot of changes in classical orchestral music over time; the difference between, say, Mozart and William Walton is no less than the difference between Beatles and Metallica, probably even more so).

And indeed, the large & majestic sound of a symphonic orchestra has no parallels with the modern music. But on the other hand I think we can easily compare classical chamber music with jazz/tango/rock. And in this field I'd rather listen something like [1] than any classical quartet/quinter regardless whether it was written by Beethoven or by Shostakovich.

[1]https://youtu.be/XGeLtdmviGM

[LordNight]

No, obviously out of ~300 films produced in 30s and 40s each year, 90% or more were dross. What I've meant is:

1. The best films of this period far surpassed my expectations from the technical point of view. And there were a lot of decent-to-exceptional films produced at the time; I could name at least 50 american films worth watching from 1930 to 1950. In comparison, I could hardly name 10 films from 1951 to 1960 that are at least decent (and yes, Paths of Glory, named below, is the best).

I think it was mostly due to the fact that all personnel, connected with the creation of a film at the time were still largely pioneers at the field and they had all possible expertiese in it (films in the 60s and especially in the 70s became noticeably more amateur; 50s suffered due to McCarthy). Movies were still relatively new and there were a lot of innovation in it each year. On top of that, it was a time of the Great Depression and high unemploymend. Hollywood were one of the better off industries and so were able to easlily atrract best of the best.

2. Even B-movies from rich studios had high production values. From the same 1941 I could easily recommend for example The Gay Falcon - Irving Reis - RKO/Nothing But the Truth - Elliott Nugent - Paramount/Charley's Aunt - Archie Mayo - 20 Fox. All are relatively simple, but well worth the watch.

3. What's more important, the 30s and 40s cinema had its own unique style and dynamic, very different from later decades. I'd say it was closer to Imre Kalman and Franz Lehar operettas, rather than more convential movies we are used today. It was, if I may say so, a thing-in-itself, hardly comparable with what came later.

[parenthesis]

After watching all those movies, please would you share some of your favourites, especially lesser known titles.

[greggman3]

I can give you my list as I've also been watching lots of "old" movies. Though "old" can mean almost anything depending on who you ask. Note: I'm picky so while I love movies if I check my ratings (I take notes because I forget what I watched), it turns out I only like about one out of 10 movies. Or maybe to put it in a slightly better light, only 1 of 10 or so is worth recommending. Some might be okay but not okay enough to tell someone "you should seek out this movie"

Anyway, here's some from my list from the last year (the list of ones I didn't like is MUCH longer and includes many that are highly rated on IMDB)

"Now, Voyager" (1942)

"Boom Town" (1940)

"The Best Years of Our Lives" (1947)

"The Little Princess" (1939)

"Destry Rides Again" (1939)

"Baby Face" (1933)

"Adam's Rib" (1949)

"In a Lonely Place" (1950)

"It Happened One Night" (1934)

"The Woman of the Year" (1942)

"The Awful Truth" (1937)

"Broken Arrow" (1950)

"The Lady Eve" (1941)

"His Girl Friday" (1940)

"12 O'Clock High" (1949)

"You Can't Take It With You" (1938)

"The Far County" (1954)

"Random Harvest" (1942)

"The Bad and the Beautiful" (1952)

"The Philadelphia Story" (1940)

"Cry Danger" (1951)

"This Gun For Hire" (1942)

"Casablanca" (1942). I didn't get it at 23 where as I shook from crying at 50. Basically I needed to truly feel Rick's loss and what he was going through (Bogart's character). At 23 I didn't. At 50 I did. I suppose you could have similar experiences to Rick at a younger age or you could never have them and then not have it do anything for you.

I don't think any of them are "lesser known". Basically I just look up IMDB. If it's rated > 7 and sounds mildly interesting I'll take a look. Tons of them don't work for me. Those above did. As recent examples of ones that didn't "The Strange Love of Martha Ivers" (1946), "Dark Passage" (1947), "Waterloo Bridge" (1940), "The Bishop's Wife" (1947), "Spellbound" (1945), "Fort Apache" (1948). Those are just from the last 2 weeks (^^;)

[LordNight]

Ok, I'll try, but keep in mind, that there were a lot of well known films that I didn't lile (for example, I didn't like any film with Katharine Hepburn in it; although i've tried it three times, I've never finished Casablanca).

Anyway, If you are interested in classic movies I think the best way to start is with Frank Capra (1932 - American Madness, 1933 - Lady for a Day, 1934 - It Happened One Night, 1936 - Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, 1938 - You Can't Take It with You, 1939 - Mr. Smith Goes to Washington), Preston Sturges (1940 - The Great McGinty, 1940 - Christmas in July, 1941 - Sullivan's Travels), some of Myrna Loy & William Powell films (1934 - Thin Man, 1936 - After the Thin Man, 1936 - Libeled Lady) and possibly Charlie Chaplin later films (1931 - City Lights, 1952 - Limelight). Continue to

Dramas: 1957 - Le notti di Cabiria - Federico Fellini; 1957 - Il Grido - Michelangelo Antonioni; 1957 - Paths of Glory - Stanley Kubrick; 1952 - Ikiru - Akira Kurosawa; 1954 - A Big Family - Iosif Kheifits; 1951 - The Browning Version - Anthony Asquith; 1959 - Les quatre cents coups - Francois Truffaut; 1959 - Room At The Top - Jack Clayton; 1962 - The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner - Tony Richardson; 1962 - Nine Days in a Year - Mikhail Romm; 1960 - The Lady with the Dog - Iosif Kheifits; 1962 - Il Sorpasso - Dino Risi; 1961 - La Ragazza con la valigia - Valerio Zurlini; 1948 - Ladri di biciclette - Vittorio De Sica; 1945 - Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne - Robert Bresson; 1936 - Dodsworth - William Wyler; 1937 - La Grande Illusion - Jean Renoir; 1940 - City for Conquest - Anatole Litvak; 1941 - Citizen Kane - Orson Welles; 1941 - H.M. Pulham, Esq - King Vidor; 1946 - The Best Years of Our Lives - William Wyler; 1942 - Now, Voyager - Irving Rapper; 1942 - Random Harvest - Mervyn LeRoy; 1960 - The Apartment - Billy Wilder; 1950 - Sunset Blvd. - Billy Wilder; 1962 - Lonely Are the Brave - David Miller; 1964 - The Americanization of Emily; 1965 - The Hill - Sidney Lumet; 1966 - A Man for All Seasons - Fred Zinnemann; 1966 - Nayak - Satyajit Ray; 1968 - The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter - Robert Ellis Miller; 1971 - The Hospital - Arthur Hiller; 1975 - Barry Lyndon - Stanley Kubrick; 1975 - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - Milos Forman; 1977 - Saturday Night Fever - John Badham; 1979 - ...And Justice for All - Norman Jewison.

Comedies: 1940 - The Shop Around The Corner - Ernst Lubitsch; 1939 - Destry Rides Again - George Marshall; 1950 - Father of the Bride - Vincente Minnelli; 1940 - Pride and Prejudice - Robert Z. Leonard; 1939 - Day-Time Wife - Gregory Ratoff; 1934 - Little Miss Marker - Alexander Hall; 1935 - The Gilded Lily - Wesley Ruggles; 1935 - If You Could Only Cook - William A. Seiter; 1935 - Ruggles of Red Gap - Leo McCarey; 1936 - My Man Godfrey - Gregory La Cava; 1937 - Easy Living - Mitchel Liesen; 1937 - Topper - Norman Z. McLeod; 1938 - Merrily We Live - Norman Z. McLeod; 1940 - My Favorite Wife - Garson Kanin; 1941 - Ball of Fire - Howard Hawks; 1941 - It Started with Eve - Henry Koster; 1941 - Charley's Aunt - Archie Mayo; 1942 - Larceny, Inc. - Lloyd Bacon; 1942 - The Big Street - Irving Reis; 1942 - The Major and the Minor - Billy Wilder; 1943 - The More the Merrier - George Stevens; 1948 - Sitting Pretty - Walter Lang; 1947 - Miracle on 34th Street - George Seaton; 1947 - Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House - H.C. Potter; 1949 - Little Women - Mervyn LeRoy; 1955 - Marty - Delbert Mann; 1956 - Spring on Zarechnaya Street - Marlen Khutsiev; 1957 - Porte Des Lilas - Rene Clair; 1958 - Mon Oncle - Jascques Tati; 1959 - Some Like It Hot - Billy Wilder; 1960 - Make Mine Mink - Robert Asher; 1963 - Sunday in New York - Peter Tewksbury; 1963 - Il Giovedi - Dino Risi; 1963 - Three Plus Two - Genrikh Oganisyan; 1964 - Walking the Streets of Moscow - Georgiy Daneliya; 1964 - A Hard Day's Night - Richard Lester; 1968 - The Odd Couple - Gene Saks; 1977 - The Goodbye Girl - Herbert Ross; 1978 - Same Time Next Year - Robert Mulligan

Crime/Action: 1969 - The Italian Job - Peter Collinson; 1974 - The Taking of Pelham One Two Three - Joseph Sargent; 1967 - Le Samurai - Jean-Pierre Melville; 1960 - Le Trou - Jacques Becker; 1960 - Un taxi pour Tobrouk - Denys de La Patelliere; 1970 - They Call Me Trinity - Enzo Barboni; 1973 - Papillon - Franklin J. Schaffner; 1973 - The Sting - George Roy Hill; 1973 - The Last Detail - Hal Ashby; 1975 - The Great Waldo Pepper - George Roy Hill; 1975 - Three Days of the Condor - Sydney Pollack; 1976 - The Seven-Per-Cent Solution - Herbert Ross; 1977 - Capricorn One - Peter Hyams; 1977 - Smokey and the Bandit - Hal Needham; 1939 - The Roaring Twenties - Raoul Walsh; 1939 - Beau Geste - William A. Wellman; 1939 - Stagecoach - John Ford; 1941 - The Gay Falcon - Irving Reis; 1941 - I Wake Up Screaming - Bruce Humberstone; 1941 - Johnny Eager - Mervyn LeRoy

I didn't like any film noir but three: 1946 - Nobody Lives Forever - Jean Negulesco; 1946 - The Killers - Robert Siodmak; 1956 - The Killing - Stanley Kubrick. There also were two great spoofs 1947 - My Favorite Brunette - Elliott Nugent and 1971 - Gumshoe - Stephen Frears.

I don't enjoy musicals, westerns and 'epic' historical films, so I can't recommend anything.

[parenthesis]

Thanks for that! I count only about seventeen of those that I've seen, despite having seen old movies in the hundreds.

Funnily enough, my favourite old Hollywood genres are musicals and westerns.

I grew up only really being exposed to post 1960 movie musicals which I never really liked. About seven years ago I thought, "I've never really watched any old movie musicals", and just started watching them. It was a revelation to discover the (to me) amazing stuff from the 30s, 40s and 50s. My ideal movie musical was made in the 1930s, stars Fred Astaire, and has songs by the Gershwins, Cole Porter or Irving Berlin.

Some highlights for me would be:

42nd Street (1933) Not the first `backstage musical' but sets the template. One of the things I love about old movie musicals is that people don't randomly start singing and dancing: they sing and/or dance because they are singers or songwriters or dancers or choreographers creating or rehearsing or performing.

Gold Diggers of 1933 (1933) More Busby Berkeley.

Footlight Parade (1933) More Busby Berkeley. James Cagney stars.

On the Avenue (1937)

Shall we Dance (1937)

Lady be Good (1941)

You Were Never Lovelier (1942)

The Gang's All Here (1943)

Anchors Aweigh (1945)

The Pirate (1948) Don't listen to the naysayers, this film to me is pretty much perfect.

An American in Paris (1951) Contains the amazing sequence in which Oscar Levant is portrayed conducting, playing every instrument, and being the audience of Gershwin's Concerto in F for Piano and Orchestra (which I think is much better than the more famous Rhapsody in Blue).

The Band Wagon (1953)

Daddy Long Legs (1955)

High Society (1956)

Funny Face (1957)

Gypsy (1962)

And then a couple of years ago, I asked myself: which film genres have I never really watched? Westerns (and Horror, still haven't gone there) being my answer. Turns out I really love westerns.

Some favourites:

Destry Rides Again (1939)

Stagecoach (1939)

Fort Apache (1948) To me, this is the best of John Ford's `cavalry trilogy'

Red River (1948)

Winchester '73 (1950) My favourite of the Anthony Mann / James Stewart westerns.

Vera Cruz (1954) Action movies weren't invented in the 1980s.

The Man from Laramie (1955)

Seven Men from Now (1956) The best of the Budd Boetticher / Randolph Scott westerns.

Man of the West (1958)

The Horse Soldiers (1959)

Last Train from Gun Hill (1959)

Two Rode Together (1961)

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

El Dorado (1966) Rio Bravo gets all the love, but this is the more satisfying result for me.

[LordNight]

Well, to the best of my knowledge, these are nice additions to my list of recommendations :-)

1. I agree, that final scene in An American in Paris is just mindblowing (for the lack of a better word). I've seen it at least 20 times and it still amazes me. Vincente Minnelli was a one of a kind genius. Another highlight for me was Astair's Puttin' on the Ritz from Blue Skies. And as for Gershwin - I myself prefer his Piano concerto.

2. As far as I know, musicals were the most popular genre in 1930s-40s and a lot of talent was put in their creation (and it shows). That said, I just don't like the genre for two reasons:

- Astair/Rogers-style, where actors suddenly transition from dialog to dancing, just seem too weird and far fetched to me;

- Busby Berkeley-style extravaganzas are, indeed, better and, as a rule, visually stunning. But for me they fail as films simply because there is usually not enough plot/dialogues (that is, the whole plot is just a vehicle to show dancing sequences). These type of films are better enjoyed as short clips on youtube :-) Uncharacteristically, I've enjoyed much later Saturday Night Fever and Dirty Dancing, both made in this style. Although I think these two films could have been even better if their creators were more ambitious. There were a lot of unused potential in them.

3. I have no objections to the westerns as a genre. I've included both Destry Rides Again and Stagecoach. It's just that I've seen ~10 westerns from 50s and 60s, didn't like any of them and decided to skip the genre altogether. I might return to them some time in the future.