[what2build]

We can sell our bodies to be destroyed in coal mines, sitting at desks, smash them up building homes, abusing them in sports, catch a Covid-19 bug...

Puritan economics seem perfectly accepting of destroying ourselves.

Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh

Only if the pleasure comes from that new gadget or next airfare (which is destroying the environment but so it is)

[Melting_Harps]

> Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh

Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to.

It was entirely eye-opening to see how sad it is when you're talking with a young women trying to sell their bitcoin at 2am to pay for rent before they get evicted and have enough to buy baby formula and diapers.

The US is so backwards, they can show the most depraved forms of violence and cruelty imaginable and call it entertainment with out batting an eye, but showing the Human form in any sexual manner is somehow cause for alarm and deemed perverse and promoting rape culture if you believe some of the most absurd in Society.

Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more.

As for this article, its showing how pervasive the Panopticon this form of the Internet is and underscore the idea that 'you are the product' mantra about 'free' services. We really need a different Internet already. Porn is and will always be a big component of the Internet, but much like the antics you had when you were an adolescent you soon realize their is much more value in other things and move on.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

> Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to.

This is crazily important.

However ... it still doesn't get to the question of why anyone would consider being on OnlyFans (I'm not discussing in-person sex work) to be more problematic than having to do some other sort of low-paid, low-status, boring, dead-end, exploitative job (and remember, OnlyFans is a classic long-tail situation: for most people on it, it is low paid).

The big picture is that we live in a society which despite occasional flowery words from a senator here and there does not actually value and care for all of its members. We continuously and repeatedly place our neighbors, family, friends, colleagues in situations where in order to survive they have to take options they do not really want to take.

We could take much better care of each other. We could make the bad options much better. We could do both.

[bonoboTP]

> Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more

This is way overemphasized on the Internet by people who don't have much experience with living in Europe. It's similar to Europeans imagining that in the US it's an everyday thing that people are dying left and right because they can't pay for an emergency ambulance to take them to the hospital.

Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently.

Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work? Why is it always poorer Eastern European Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Russian women at the top of porn star lists?

[Melting_Harps]

> Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently.

When I was in my last year of apprenticeship in Switzerland I managed one the estates of the owner's homes for most of the year while they worked in Bern, which included the investment homes they had in Zurich and in Lussane. It was where generational wealthy people parked their money, guess who our neighbors were? High class Swiss escorts, I know this because I met them and asked to keep an eye on things while I was away and gave them vegetables from our farm in exchange as a good gesture of will.

I lived in S. Germany in what was once Ag land but had been urbanized for wealthy 'Green minded' Germans, where prostitution is once again legal. I got chatted up on the train a few times only to find out (by my then German-Anglo fiance) it was a meet and greet tactic they use to get them into the brothels and is apparently common to use on foreigners and university students. They were all German not one was Eastern European, which to be honest is what I'm more physically attracted to than most Western Europeans.

I can go on here about working Summers in Croatia, and Italy that included catering to nude sunbathing crowds in camp sites and resorts which are frequented mainly by other Western Europeans, but suffice it to say: I was born and raised in CA, but I've lived and worked in Europe long enough to stand by my claims and spent my Summers as a child in the coast of Spain as I'm half S. European myself. Where the local 'puti-club' is just another thing people joke about since its so common.

> Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work?

First, as I outlined already and my first hand experiences: I don't think sex work is empowering at all and often has more to do with poverty and dire economic circumstances then the tired narrative of it being so that's shoved down our collective throats by this neo-femisnist narrative. Which is why you see the higher frequency of E. European women you mentioned in those situations instead of a women from wealthy Nordic country with good social nets and social mobility.

[bonoboTP]

Well, it's entirely possible that I'm underestimating how prude America is, as I haven't lived there.

In some ways it seems America is quite hyperfixated on sex, but in very specific ways with specific taboos. Like nipples are the end of the world, but selling anything from cars to hamburgers with sexy women is A-OK. Just paste a sticker on the nipples at least, then it's fine. Cheerleaders, boxing ring sign holding girls etc. etc.

In contrast, the European things you mention, like bathing and saunas and beaches are not about drooling over bodies, but just being normally without clothes, often among family. Not sexually.

I think these need to be distinguished. Sexuality isn't equal to nudity.

[Melting_Harps]

> Well, it's entirely possible that I'm underestimating how prude America is, as I haven't lived there.

I think its incredibly distorted, the US overly sells Sex as an image to sell things and links it to everything it can.

Not least of which is porn and the Valley in SoCal as opposed to NorCal refers to the what was Ground Zero for Porn where all the old studios were based out of and was where most of the online stuff was created. Though Japan seems to have the highest production in terms of population-to-content if I recall correctly, which again coincides with bad economic situations, specifically under-employment and very low marriage/fertility rates.

Your edit was well timed, as you pretty much echo what I wrote. It's so weird... in University you're almost encouraged to do it all, but then when you get to the professional setting and you reach low level management position in an office setting you're briefed on sexual harassment so much you're almost terrified any encounter with the opposite sex will be deemed rape. It's horrible and really not that much of an issue as they want you to think it is when you really think about it as most encounters are brief and forgettable if you're busy working.

[bonoboTP]

> but then when you get to the professional setting and you reach low level management position in an office setting you're briefed on sexual harassment so much you're almost terrified any encounter with the opposite sex will be deemed rape. It's horrible and really not that much of an issue as they want you to think it is when you really think about it as most encounters are brief and forgettable if you're busy working.

It's a legal thing (threats of lawsuits and the associated costs are again one of those things about America that determine many other things). It's also spreading on campuses now, which weirdly have their own tribunals outside of the normal court system and reverse the assumption of innocence in rape accusations etc. Ties into how American college encompasses students lives to a huge extent, while in Europe things are more distributed, people do sports outside of college, regularly live outside of dorms etc. There's no college police etc. Similarly, American workplaces also seem to provide more, e.g. custom healthcare plans, a bit in the direction of how Japanes companies sort of become your "benevolent" provider who will organize many aspects of your life.

Either way, I think it involves lots of layers of posturing. In the end, many people still hook up or even pair up at the workplace. I also know people who are very politically conscious and support all the MeToo etc stuff, but somehow hooked up and became partners at an academic conference. You just have to do it the right way (risky, but not too hard for the socially skilled who know when and how to do it). It's still very much possible. People don't act the way they talk.

[tester756]

> Why is it always poorer Eastern European Polish

seriously?

I didn't even know that there are (popular) porn stars from my country, yet alone on the top of lists

[bonoboTP]

My bad. I guess it's more Czechia and Hungary specifically. Due to various business reasons and historic opportunities of the unregulated market and chaos after the change of system in 1990 and the generally atheistic society, poverty and conventionally attractive women (and white, which was important for the rich first world market). Poland was/is perhaps too religious for this.

[SyzygistSix]

>Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to.

Sounds like the majority of jobs. Although I agree that the lack of social services in the US has reached ridiculous levels.

[what2build]

People are hardly working for Google because they want to.

People are hardly working in slaughter houses and coal mines because they want to.

Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex, and controlling their bodies time economy is their choice.

One would think on this forum that it’s a gradient of statistics and not black and white anecdotes would be more obvious.

Exploitation of minors is one thing. Though, I do not see many folks lifting a finger over child political prisoners in rancid cages. So I’m left wondering if exploitation is the real issue or the sex part given cultural norms.

[DanBC]

> Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex,

Sex work is the only job where you believe the advertising. "I'm selling a little bit of sex because I have such a high sex drive" or "I love sex and I need to fund my way through college" -- they need to say this because most of their punters do not want to buy sex from people who are poor and desperate for money.