[Aloha]

Why would I refuse to fly in a perfectly safe airplane?

I'm not punishing Boeing, I'm punishing Southwest and American Airlines at that point - and probably myself too, as I live immensely close to DFW (I just heard an airplane land).

[caconym_]

This "perfectly safe airplane" has been grounded for almost two years after two crashes killed 346 people. The root cause of these crashes is a mind-bogglingly irresponsible bit of design that can be linked directly to decision makers at Boeing deciding to prioritize corporate profits over human lives.

I don't have a hard time believing that we won't see any more MCAS-related trim runaway accidents after the scrutiny of the past two years, but what evidence do we have that the dysfunctional leadership behind this particular flaw is the exception rather than the rule?

When the Max was flying, it was still extremely unlikely that you'd die on one, but dying is a pretty big deal (to me, at least). For the foreseeable future, I'll be choosing alternatives to Boeing when they're available.

[throwaway201103]

Problems are easy to see in retrospect. You could have made similar arguments after every air crash that was caused by a design flaw.

These problems are found, fixed, lessons learned, new rules enacted, and we move on.

[salawat]

No, no they weren't.

The problems we have is an organization tasked with transporting millions over the timespan of a year at speeds approaching Mach 1 ended up in tge position whereby financial growth outpaced it's primary reason for existence. To manufacture and support the distribution, operation, and uptake of safe passenger airplanes.

Until you get rid of that modus operandi from the upper management, you'll not see a significant culture change.

[Gibbon1]

One thing I noticed about VW, their management culture changed a bit after the German government tossed a couple of managers in prison.

I think the key thing is a fine is always just another line on the spreadsheet.

[caconym_]

> You could have made similar arguments after every air crash that was caused by a design flaw.

I'm not really convinced this is true. For instance, in the classic case of de Havilland Comets brought down by square windows, I think it was an honest mistake that happened because pressurized cabins were new-ish tech. They worked to understand the problem and fixed the design. Nobody was trying to cut corners AFAIK (no pun intended).

I guess we could make another category where an iffy design is made to fail by corner-cutting on the part of the airlines, as in the MD-80 pitch trim jackscrew issues.

The MAX is a case of the actual aircraft manufacturer explicitly compromising the design of a safety feature because they knew it would help them sell more planes (due to avoiding training/recertification requirements). IIRC, the investigation revealed a consistent pattern of negligence and outright malfeasance on Boeing's part to this effect. I wouldn't say this kind of thing has never happened before, but off the top of my head I have to assume it's pretty rare.

[WalterBright]

> The MAX is a case of the actual aircraft manufacturer explicitly compromising the design of a safety feature because they knew it would help them sell more planes

The error was not in the concept of the MAX nor the concept of the MCAS. The problem was twofold:

1. MCAS should have used inputs from both AOA sensors, rather than just one. MCAS had too much authority over the travel, and it should have deactivated itself if the pilots repeatedly countermanded it.

2. The pilots were not trained properly in emergency procedures with the stab trim. Boeing put out an Emergency Airworthiness Directive after the first crash with explicit instructions on how to deal with it, but the EA pilots did not follow those instructions.

https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA...

[eganist]

> The error was not in the concept of the MAX nor the concept of the MCAS.

The reason MCAS was introduced in the first place was because the platform that Boeing chose to extend (to avoid recertification requirements) was unstable as a result of the introduction of CFM's new LEAP engines.

They insisted on correcting an emergent hardware defect with software in order to reuse an old platform to compete against a surprise threat from Airbus rather than design an inherently safe, novel platform.

All to save time and money getting to production.

I.e. all for profit.

As for the emergency procedures Boeing drafted after Lion Air, they apparently were attempted: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... — and more recently https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/04/ethiopian-airl...

[WalterBright]

> was unstable

No, it was not unstable. It just behaved differently enough that some additional pilot training would have been needed without MCAS.

> rather than design an inherently safe

All jetliners are unstable and require active augmentation.

> they apparently were attempted

No, they were not. The procedure is:

1. trim to normal with the electric trim switches

2. turn off the stab trim switches.

That's it.

https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA...

The LA crew never turned off the trim after trimming to normal. The EA made a different mistake - turning off the trim when it was too far from neutral.

Neither the Seattle Times nor The Guardian are reliable sources on aviation. Aviation Week is a lot better. The Times author apparently did not read the EAD he cited. I'll quote from it the relevant bit:

https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA...

"Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT. Manual stabilizer trim can be used before and after the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT."

Note that the flight data recorder showed that both crews had moved the trim back to normal with the trim switches, and neither thought to then turn it off.

[dTal]

>The pilots were not trained properly in emergency procedures with the stab trim. Boeing put out an Emergency Airworthiness Directive after the first crash with explicit instructions on how to deal with it, but the EA pilots did not follow those instructions.

If the planes are still crashing after the "problem" was fixed, then that wasn't the problem.

(Specifically - the "emergency procedures" in question are "what to do if your plane randomly decides to fly you into the ground". The only way to save your skin is to take a specific emergency action within a time window of a few seconds. This is not a reasonable design.)

[WalterBright]

Neither crash was within a few seconds. The EA crew fought it for 5 minutes, the LA crew 25 minutes.

-- Aviation Week, Sep 1, 2019

As for being an emergency, yes it was, and dealing with emergencies is most of pilot training. Dealing with runaway trim (which is how this failure exhibited) is part of that training. The Emergency Airworthiness Directive reiterated what the procedure was for runaway trim.

Runaway trim is so serious that it is a "memory item" meaning the pilots know how to deal with it without needing to consult a checklist.

While runaway trim should never happen, it is reasonable to expect the pilots to deal with it properly.

[adriancr]

Thing is boeing made incredibly bad decisions that should have been avoided given current rules and procedures.

That was only done due to concern for profits and not due to any engineering flaws. (MCAS existing in the first place, it didnt have reliable sensors, pilots were not instructed on it)

How would you react if a loved one died due to boeing or any company greed?

Cynic in me is hoping this is only allowed to fly in the US until it proves safe and boeing execs and employees are forced on every damn flight.

[bronson]

Iterating works well with software but not so well with airplanes.

And, you must admit that Boeing has shown utter disregard for rules through this process.

[eganist]

Southwest and AA would be incentivized to pursue recourse if it turns out their faith was placed in a product as a result of deception or fraud... but this is even more true if consumers punish the airlines for falling victim to such deception in the first place.