[runawaybottle]

What are the chances these orders to co-opt people in China to do this is coming straight from the top of the CCP?

There is a school of thought that provides a lot of analysis and evidence that the acceleration of the Holocaust was a bottom-up phenomenon (not a master plan made by Hitler years before). Hitler might have laid out details to exile the Jews, but there was no evidence he gave a direct order to begin full scale extermination via extermination camps (different from forced labor camps).

The evidence suggests the underlying Nazi ideologies gave ample flexibility to middle management Nazis to begin competing and escalating into a full blown Holocaust.

With that said, I wonder if the top CCP leaders gave the order ‘get a Zoom executive to troll the Tiananmen Square meetings’, or ‘Specifically do X and X to the Uighurs’. It could very well be possible that there is no directive, just a general ideology that is now being executed in creative ways, completely independent of leadership (but ultimately co-signed by leadership as it fits the ideology).

Once the Nazi sub leadership began their mass shootings of the Jews, they couldn’t stop. They found out it was too much to do at scale, so they escalated to gas chambers.

CCP sub leadership may not be able to stop what they have started.

[jcytong]

This seems to be the pattern. Obviously, when managing a country of 1.4 billion people, it is a major challenge to get every single directive in a precise and timely manner. Many of these directives need to be carried out by regular citizens and professionals so a lot of interpretation is left to the lower level leaders.

By only giving a high level ideology/direction, the top leaders give themselves room to manuver when things go sideways and can shift blame onto the lower level leaders' execution.

The system also seem to over penalize under-execution rather than over-execution.

Many examples can be found clearly demonstrated in Hong Kong as the integration with mainland China get sped up by the National Security Law. The recent freezing of exiled HK lawmaker Ted Hui's bank accounts along with his parents and family members accounts which was making global headlines and causing attention.[1]

It seems like the move was part of the high level "exterminate HK pro-democracy figures" but after the headlines, Ted Hui's bank accounts were unfrozen for a while which subsequently allowed him to move some of his funds. Shortly afterwards they were re-frozen [2]. Some believed that the execution went too far as to undermine the global trust in HK which would cost more to the regime so it had to retract to mitigate the damage.

This type of farce seems to happen more often as HK transition into a police state masquerading as a rule of law society.

[1]https://www.reuters.com/article/hongkong-security/former-hon...

[2]https://hongkongfp.com/2020/12/07/hsbc-re-freezes-accounts-b...

[selimthegrim]

Really? Given Goebbels' Freudian slip here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportpalast_speech) and the Wannsee conference?

[runawaybottle]

So, the acceleration of the Holocaust occurred earlier around 1940-1941 when they were in Poland. By 1943, they had already done close to half the total killings (the number 6 million we agree on).

Check out the numbers in 1942 (this is just from one death camp, in 1941 they were doing the mass shootings pre-gas chambers):

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/5/1/eaau729...

By the time they were done, I guess they said ‘Yeah, this is the plan’.

Goebbels also has a history of instigating and letting things ‘play out’, Kristallnacht being the prime example. Even so, this wouldn’t be the guy up top that would deliver a clear plan on extermination. Similarly, they found no proof that even Hitler delivered clear plans on extermination (his end goal was exile initially). You pretty much have to find the shitbags in the sub leadership in Poland that took it to a new level (Himmler). So, yeah, I wouldn’t call it a Freudian slip if it happened in 1943, it was just shitbags latching on to a plan that was well into motion by then (not absolving anyone here on any level, Hitler/Goebbels set fertile ground for things to escalate organically). If anything, the death camps were planned to be closed (and were closed by 1944 by Nazis themselves) and erased from history to cover up.

Anyway, back to the point. I think China said ‘we need to do something about Muslim extremist, and anti nationalists’, and how that gets carried out is up to a lot of imagination, whether it be re-education camps, Hong Kong crackdown, or Zoom bombing. This is a country that will also work very hard to cover up all this bullshit when it’s all said and done.

I’m aware that this sounds like over-fitting, but I can’t help it, the pattern just fits in my eyes.

[topspin]

> What are the chances...

A what point does the effort necessary to compute these odds become an exercise in apology and where does the need to exonerate CCP leaders come from? We do not hesitate to attribute the fall of every sparrow to Trump's incitement of his racist supporters, yet somehow we mustn't permit the attribution of the crimes of CCP's many minions rise to any meaningful height in the party.