[trianglem]

Tangentially related, but I think that there’s a real problem in western society around the teen years. Since corporal punishment is not allowed, parents tend to discipline their kids by attacking their self worth. This leads to a reliable pattern of teens “hating” their parents, a phenomenon that is non existent in the rest of the world especially Asia. This also leads to a huge disparity in what percentage of kids end up becoming successful adults even when all basic needs are met.

[nitrogen]

Corporal punishment doesn't exactly prevent teens hating their parents, either.

The most violent instance I've seen (as opposed to experienced) was within a culture that has very high respect for elders. A 20-something guy's dad beat him repeatedly with a log (3" diameter with the rough bark on doesn't really count as a stick) because the 20-something said something mean to his (the 20-something's) wife. The 20-something needed some kind of reprimand, but I wouldn't accept that kind of violence in trade for higher "respect" for elders.

[skim_milk]

>Since corporal punishment is not allowed, parents tend to discipline their kids by attacking their self worth.

There's no doubt we're in this awkward generation where our parents were probably treated with corporal punishment, but still want to inflict onto their kids this which they were exposed to as a kid despite this no longer looking good/being legal. Even the anti-child-abuse book "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller wrote "The former practice of physically maiming, exploiting, and abusing children seems to have been gradually replaced in modern times by a form of mental cruelty that is masked by the honorific term child-rearing". Of course the book pretty clearly covers the dangers of corporal punishment or any kind of attack on a child's self-worth. The point is to push through this awkward abusive phase and bring our species out the other side more self-aware by not continuing the cycle of abuse/neglect.

[trianglem]

How do you push through a phase with no corrective mechanism allowed on the other side? How do you propose you correct your kids? Corporal punishment is quick and decisive and both parties can move on quickly as opposed to the lifelong mental baggage that weighs down a lot of people in the western world.

[grahamburger]

> How do you propose you correct your kids?

It's not hard. You just talk to them. It takes a little bit of patience and self awareness. Sometimes they're still gonna fuck up. But then, so are you.

[markc]

I'm not in the camp of saying all corporal punishment is abuse, but IMO it's quite limited in the ages and situations where it's applicable.

Has everyone on this thread forgotten about non-physical punishments?

These should take the form of natural and logical consequences whenever possible.

Make sure the kid understands what's expected of them, and how they failed to meet the expectations. Then, if needed, reinforce this with natural consequences (when it makes sense). Classic example is taking away possessions or privileges when they're misused.

Punishments can certainly be arbitrary or disproportionate (which tends to spark resentment - and possibly the mental baggage you mention) so it's important to do it thoughtfully. Done right, it's effective and non-traumatizing.

[closeparen]

What makes you say you can quickly move on?

Isn’t it the whole point to create a powerful memory that instills lasting fear and influences all future decisions?

[paganel]

Not the OP, but I think it’s not the slap on your bottom that should scare you as a kid, but the fear when thinking about the slap, and even more so, the thought that you made your parents so upset that they now have to slap you, even though they don’t want to.

Of course, that only works with parents who don’t resort to slapping their kids’ bottoms like it’s nothing (after a while you become accustomed to it as a kid, it doesn’t scare you anymore), and also parents who genuinely love their kids and who have a close and warm relationship with said kids, that way when the kid sees that he has upset his parents he knows he did something bad even before the slap (and in that way avoiding it altogether).

Trying to only use reason with kids who are 4 or 5 years old won’t work.

[trianglem]

My memory of corporal punishment — three times in my life — was a reminder of the severity of how wrong something I did was and looking back at it was completely justified. It’s not fear as much as shock to remember the moment. The pain was insignificant and so there was no fear, at least for me.

[renjimen]

If a child is old enough to understand (usually younger than you think, judging from my friends' children), they're old enough to deserve a conversation about why what they did was not a good thing. Will they act out again? Probably, but that only requires more energy and intelligence from the parent to educate their child.

Corporal punishment is lazy, short-sighted parenting that is a "chronic, developmental stressor associated with depression, aggression and addictive behaviors" [1]. Honestly, I'm shocked this is being supported on Hackernews, of all places.

Maybe you're right that Western parents are caught between an era of corporal punishment and not knowing how to parent alternatively. Does that mean reverting to violence against children? Absolutely not. Surely it means understanding how to communicate with your children better.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/?_escap...

[trianglem]

The problem with conversations is they sometimes end up turning into exactly what I was defining in my original comment above, a long drawn out attack on the child’s self worth. Just because something is quicker and feels cruder doesn’t automatically mean it’s lazy.

[closeparen]

I guess we are talking about different things. Parents of traditional/conservative households in my neighborhood would routinely strike their kids with heavy implements, over and over for at least several minutes, inflicting serious pain. Kids would adapt and their pain tolerances would increase, they'd try to hide it, their parents would find out and escalate. It was a whole thing.

[trianglem]

Oh yeah, there’s no excuse for that.

[bradlys]

Are we talking about at institutions or at home? Corporal punishment is legal in all 50 states for parents.

Btw, corporal punishment isn’t a great alternative to dissing your kids. Both are terrible and should be avoided.

Just because some people beat the shit out of kids in Asia doesn’t mean Asia got it right.

[trianglem]

There’s a difference between beating the shit out of your kids and a slap across the face. That nuance gets thrown out with the bath water though.