[The_rationalist]

The biggest point that nobody talks about is the following: Sadly it's about physical attractiveness (or visual super-stimulus). There is a gap between average man vs woman attractiveness that has massively increased since the 80s. Why? The natural gap is low but culturally and increasingly, women wear more and more sexier clothes while men do not. Moreover makeup has evolved and most "ugly" woman can appear sexy if they master the art of makeup, which again men culturally cannot. Regarding the first point I do believe men should wear sexier clothes to reduce the gap, even if that imply the need to shave. But it's hard to change the accepted man aesthetics (e.g some people find Crop tops gays) Regarding makeup I mostly don't believe men will use it before many decades or at best a subset of makeup. So the gap will be reduced but still is and will remain high until a long time. Moreover it is increasing nowadays as tiktok and other social trends make heavy "doll" makeup mainstream. I imagine legalizing a safe (controlled) intake of testosterone could help men reduce the gap.

[thatguy0900]

Considering modern obesity rates, pretty much every guy can become better than average by working out unless they have a really bad face which testosterone wouldn't help. Test would make it easier to become ripped but youd be aiming for well above average body at that point.

Edit: I do agree though there is a huge gap where it's accepted that woman can cheat in basically every way physically possible to look better and it's encouraged but men can't do more than work out or it's ridiculed. It doesn't help that rampant steroid use in Hollywood gives people unrealistic expectations of what's achievable by a guy with a full time job on top of that. I don't think test is needed to beat out the average overweight guy though.

[selestify]

I have a nerdy friend with a pretty slim frame who works out a lot but still can’t get stereotypically buff. (Not that I’m saying he needs to do that, just that he can’t.)

Still couldn’t get laid to save his life. Beating out “the average overweight guy” is far from enough, especially if you’re in nerdy circles.

[thu2111]

The "gap" is largely irrelevant because what women find attractive is different to what men find attractive. Physical appearance isn't as important to women as it is to men. Being funny, earning well, having your life together, being confident etc is what does it for most women which is why young girls often end up dating 50 year old men.

I've gone through stretches where I was working out, doing pushups every day, etc. In the end it didn't make much difference. I found as the years passed I was able to date progressively more and more beautiful women, often to my great surprise, in the sense that I was tending to think they were 'out of my league' right up to the point we started dating. I'm not a particularly buff or good looking man by the standards presented to us in movies: quite average really. But women really respond to warm, funny confidence, the ability to entertain them and coming across as smart but not intellectually arrogant (probably they use it as a proxy for earnings potential).

I'm now fortunate to be engaged to the most beautiful women I've ever met, who in addition is calm, logical, self-reliant and self employed, funny, sweet and generous. We're head over heels in love. For years I thought it might never happen, because I searched for a long time and dated many girls in a search for love that never seemed to arrive (except once, but it was an unrequited love).

By far, the most important factor in me being able to get this girl was not physical appearance, in fact she told me that she finds buff guys unattractive because she associates it with cold and dumb guys who spend all their time working out, meaning they have nothing to say. What let me get her was years of refining my skills in what women start wanting once they're older than about 25.