[shahsyed]

I find it extremely ironic that the game touches upon themes of corporate greed and climbing the corporate ladder (I've only played it until I got a soft lock during the 3rd tutorial). How else do you get themes of technology being a boon to society? Isn't it these companies who indirectly dictate this (e.g by using your public data)?

CD Projekt Red is a great example of why publicly owned companies and creating expectations for unreasonable deadlines for any software is going to cause your employees to deal with crunch and release something that doesn't work that great. Unfortunately I'm sure that this game will entertain more than it will highlight horrible industry practices.

[b0rsuk]

This was described pretty well in this video review:

Cyberpunk 2077 Review First Impressions: A Brutally Honest Overview (Gameplay, Bugs, Worth)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2AkZVPZkbI

[LordFast]

I actually had really low expectations for this game precisely because of how much hype and marketing there had been surrounding it over the past couple of years. IMO anything in this world that requires that much in-your-face-evangelism is probably shady beneath the surface.

Therefore, I'm pleasantly surprised, it's actually a playable game with a decent looking world.

So, that's me.

[baby]

Same for fight club, that movie had a dumb title, kept being advertised on TV as a Cassette you could buy. Who advertise for a movie when you can’t watch it in theaters anymore? Then I watched the movie and... oh.

[alfonsodev]

I enjoyed this[1] other honest review as well, it includes an introduction about CDProjekt.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJKeBbk-9YA

[fellellor]

I have always been a patient gamer. I don't have much patience for jank and I don't usually go through multiple play throughs of a game like this.

And since, I haven't been able to get my hands on one of the new GPUs at an acceptable price, I would probably wait for at least a few months before purchasing this.

Looking at the bad press coverage CDPR got for handling their staff, I am tempted to think that they haven't handled their success with the Witcher series very well. Video Games production, in general, seems to rely a lot on careful management and highly organized work. So mishandling developer issues, like they have seemingly done, is very short sighted.

I hope they learn their lessons, as far as management is concerned and settle in for the long haul on this. If they can demonstrate good faith as they fix this game's issues, the real Rockstar type money would come pouring in for the sequel of this game.

[standardUser]

I have heard a lot of murmurs about "horrible industry practices" regarding CD Projekt Red, but nothing concrete. Is this just a smear campaign, or a half-truth being thoughtlessly repeated because it fits preexisting narratives?

Or more to the point, were they violating Polish or EU labor laws?

[b0rsuk]

"Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises"

Including, but not limited to, 6 day work weeks for over a year. Sounds like 966 and China.

https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/4/21575914/cyberpunk-2077-re...

Combine that with the unoptimized, buggy state the game is in. Many streamers had the game crash, forcing them to redo the combat encounter because you can't save in combat.

[wavefunction]

I have a beefy pc setup that I purchased recently specifically for Cyberpunk 2077 and some other demanding PC games still in development (wink wink Star Citizen) and I have had one non-gameplay bug in my couple of hours of play where elevator doors didn't open for my partner but did for me. The situation is very different for people using the previous gen consoles though, it seems, and I feel bad for them. I have a couple of good friends in this cohort who were very much looking forward to the game.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

I'm on 7+ year old hardware and a 1080 ti and it runs fine @ 1440p. Partner has a 980ti and it runs fine @ 1080p.

Any bugs I've encountered have been minor.

Makes me wonder what people's "rigs" are actually like. It's no Doom Eternal but it plays about as well as GTA at launch going from memory.

[b0rsuk]

Just curious, where does the fashion of calling screen resolution by vertical dimension come from? Why not a format like 1680x1050?

[rasz]

Its nothing like 966. Poland is in EU and worker rights apply.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/workin...

https://bezprawnik.pl/crunch-cd-projekt-red/

Polish law adheres to EU guidelines and limits working hours to 8 hours/day 40 hours/week with no more than 8 hours/week of overtime - paid extra.

[b0rsuk]

Standard work week is 40 hours: 8 hours for 5 days.

75% of Poles work overtime (2017): https://strefabiznesu.pl/czy-polacy-umieraja-z-przepracowani...

One fifth (20%) of those working overtime don't receive any compensation (2019): https://bezprawnik.pl/polacy-zmieniaja-prace/

Transport equipment and services is one of Poland's specialties, but even there it mostly competes on price: https://oko.press/polska-i-wegry-przegraly-spor-o-pracowniko...

(not to mention bus drivers in the capital driving under influence of metaamphetamine to keep up with the pressure)

Poland is the China of Europe. But in relations with the real China, Poland is like a colony: exporting raw resources(like copper), importing manufactured goods. And Polish president acts servile towards Xi Jinping. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yfjsZujQqc

[danielEM]

> 6 days work weeks for over a year

So not true!

Greets from Poland!

[izacus]

> I have heard a lot of murmurs about "horrible industry practices" regarding CD Projekt Red, but nothing concrete. Is this just a smear campaign, or a half-truth being thoughtlessly repeated because it fits preexisting narratives?

The crunch is very real, but the silent part is that insane working hours and crunching are a staple of gaming industry. Pretty much every single project ends up in this state and the stories can get pretty horrifying (Blood, Sweat and Pixels is an interesting read on this topic - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34376766-blood-sweat-and... ).

The strange part of this story is the way how it's set to snipe at certain companies - CDProjekt and Rockstar were target of these stories, but other development studios for some reason weren't.

[WorldMaker]

> The strange part of this story is the way how it's set to snipe at certain companies - CDProjekt and Rockstar were target of these stories, but other development studios for some reason weren't.

It seems to be cyclical that the company in the cross-hairs has a bad PR year and people talk about only the one company as if it isn't a systemic problem until memory gets blurry and people forget the last time it came up, and few people connect the dots to the systemic problem. (Almost every major publisher has been in the spotlight at some point in time or another. EA very famously had the "EA Spouse" cycle of bad press. Activision had one a few years later.)

If there is something interestingly strange here it's that CD Projekt Red tried to buck the system and do the right thing and its getting smeared so badly that it tried and failed. The takeaway for a lot of people is going to be subconsciously "it's better not to try at all to do better and stick with the status quo", which is hard not to assume is intentional this cycle from some of the members of the status quo. (It resembles other anti-union bullying tactics.)

[mey]

I remember when the (then) anonymous EA Spouse posting went up bringing wider attention to the routine practices of the game industry. Long story short, game companies can abuse the enthusiasm of young people of the medium and burn them out, over and over, for little pay. There is always someone behind you to happily take your seat. It's one of the reasons I left that field early in my career.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Hoffman#%22EA_Spouse%22_b...

[hnuser123456]

Yeah, the targeting is the most interesting part of this story for me. All of the best AAA games are the best because a lot of people put a tremendous amount of effort into them. If you want to make a new game that's a serious contender for one of the best games of all time, and you want an ambitious, deep world and story in a realistic setting, you're going to have to match or exceed previous efforts. If you find enough people who are as interested in the concept and want to make it happen, it's possible and it will probably never be a walk in the park.

There's always a market for indie-scale games, 2D platformers, simple but innovative 3D games, etc, where good, simple ideas are more important than huge amounts of effort. But there's also a market for complex games, and if they're well done, people will happily pay for them.

source: over a decade in the modding and gamedev community, never done it professionally (yet) but have made some popular mods/minigames, and a decent grasp of how much work goes into large-scale games and how much you have to want to make it happen for it to happen, and sometimes, you're willing to spend these long days, and sometimes it's even enjoyable before the money and fame start rolling in, or at least enjoyable enough to stick with it.

I hope, and suspect, nobody who is working on AAA games has zero interest or joy in making big, complicated games.

You get the job because you have skills at it. You have skills at it because you were interested enough to learn them. Those skills are worth money. All of the articles criticizing gamedev seem to miss this.

[Aunche]

I think that gaming is such a competitive industry that in order to stay relevant, you need to either essentially rip your customers off or overwork your employees. I hear that jobs at EA and King these days are relatively chill, and both are hated for their monetization strategies. While investor pressure certainly doesn't help, I think the same dynamic would exist even if all video game companies were bootstrapped.

[1ark]

I think you are partially right with the cynisism. And those companies are chill now because of scandals and making more money. But it is also a creative industry, many of those are hard to begin with. How do you compete with people/companies enjoying working seven days and sleeping in the office, and possibly at higher skill. Creating games can be extremely fun, and it can burn you out in the process. And people take paycuts to join the industry because it is fun. Every new game project is also like a startup because of all these factors.

[alasdair_]

I still have memories of writing code in my car with the heater on full blast because the building shut off all heat at midnight (middle of snowy winter) and by 1am you could see your breath in the office.

[nashalo]

Polish law specifies that the standard working time is 8 hours every 24 hours but we have reports of employees as early as one year ago who reported night and week-end hours.

Even if you don't believe anonymous employee reports, the studio's chief Adam Badowski announced in September that working time will now involve Saturdays.

To me, too many pointers are highlighting a toxic crunch culture in that studio to be ignored. I will not play Cyberpunk because of that.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-29/cyberpunk...

[standardUser]

Do you also refuse to purchase clothing made in Bangladesh and sneakers made in Indonesia? Seems like a fairly trite issue to take a stand on.

[danbolt]

I mean, both aren't ideal things. We should be mindful of that and seek to improve on that whenever we can as individuals and as a society.

[brumm]

Your word for today: Whataboutism

[tryauuum]

isn't "whataboutism" about slightly different situation, namely when a person, as a defense, accuses their interlocutor of crimes?

situation in this thread is a bit different, it's about choices of a single person.

[tmpz22]

Its a mixed bag. They promised no crunch, but there was crunch anyways. IIRC they gave bonuses and other forms of compensation for the extra work. From what I hear they have a very generous payscale relative to regional norms (Poland) and many team members stand to make a small fortune off the release of Cyberpunk 2077.

Of course executives and investors will make much more off the release then the individuals who made the game.

[raxxorrax]

Software industry in general can be exploitative but the corporation itself is not. On the contrary, their commitment to DRM free software says the opposite.

Of course it would all be nicer without crunch in software, but I think many know how realistic that is with such a project. I hope employees get their deserved free time and compensation and I believe they will, even if there is still work to do.

So while CDPR might not be perfect, it behaves better than its competitors on user rights, which affects employees too. And this is not insignificantly better conduct.

[prophesi]

> Unfortunately I'm sure that this game will entertain more than it will highlight horrible industry practices.

This statement may still be true, but Cyberpunk 2077 actually did a great job at highlighting the gaming industry's horrible practices due to CD Projekt Red promising to keep away from the status quo of mandatory crunch time. Breaking that promise put mandatory crunch time in social media's limelight.

[kbr2000]

Heh, maybe you remember Syndicate (1993) [0], "set in a dystopian future in which corporations have replaced governments, Syndicate puts the player in control of a corporation vying for global dominance. "

Ironically, the creators themselves at Bullfrog Productions got a very bitter tasting cookie [1] around that time selling to EA, cut from the same dough...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicate_(1993_video_game)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfrog_Productions#Acquisiti...