[J-dawg]

Thanks for that. And you're right, I hadn't seen that document before.

But concerns absolutely are being dismissed. I've personally listened to Matt Hancock and other ministers doing it.

The idea that someone might want to wait just a little longer to see if any side effects emerge is not necessarily irrational.

Would you not concede that, if and when any unexpected side-effects do emerge (however rare or insignificant), this gung-ho attitude will backfire?

[natex]

> The idea that someone might want to wait just a little longer to see if any side effects emerge is not necessarily irrational.

In general, yes it is irrational. There is evidence that the benefits of vaccines (including this one) far outweigh the risks of side effects.

> Would you not concede that, if and when any unexpected side-effects do emerge (however rare or insignificant), this gung-ho attitude will backfire?

Sorry, but no, this is wildly irrational. Why are rare and insignificant side effects concerning when the lives of more than 60,000 people in the UK have already ended due to this virus?

[h_anna_h]

"60,000 people in the UK have already ended due to this virus" how accurate is this? I do not know about the UK but here (Greece) they asked family members to sign that their relative died from covid when dying from something unrelated otherwise they are not allowed to retrieve the body for weeks. They also count 80-90 year olds that died as covid victims.

[natex]

> they asked family members to sign that their relative died from covid when dying from something unrelated otherwise they are not allowed to retrieve the body for weeks.

At least in the UK and US this is misinformation and false. Cause of death is certified by doctors or coroners and added to a database that reported COVID deaths are pulled from. Family members do not have to sign anything before cause of death is determined. I'd wager that Greece is no different.

COVID deaths are well known. There are many scholarly articles out there on how they are counted for people who don't get their information from Facebook. Here's a quick little article for example. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deat...

[h_anna_h]

I would certainly expect that to be the case in a sane system. Sadly I have seen too many bureaucratic insanities around so it does not seem far-fetched to me.

"and added to a database that reported COVID deaths are pulled from." database or excel spreadsheet? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24689247

I don't use facebook, my sources are my aunt (my uncle died 5 days ago due to falling and hitting his head, combined with a stroke history) and a family friend who is a doctor (and claims to be aware of 11 of such cases), note that said doctor and my aunt do not know each other.

[learc83]

I have no idea what goes on in Greece or what incentive people would have to do that. But excess death numbers are higher than COVID deaths everywhere, so the numbers aren't likely that far off.

Also my fiancee, an ER doctor, assures me that this isn't the case in the US.

[h_anna_h]

Apparently there were less deaths in greece from january-sept 2020 compared to january-sept 2019 so I don't really know what to say. https://www.cnn.gr/oikonomia/story/242950/elstat-ligoteroi-o...