[momokoko]

> Respect and Courtesy are important at all times

I could not disagree more. Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times. Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions.

It does not. Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you. Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

True that, but why are you disagreeing so vehemently? Just to be disagreeable? I didn't post anything bad or misleading.

I've found that it is entirely possible to be both polite, and quite firm.

Dishonesty is a big deal to me. I am incredibly honest and straightforward ("Blunt" is the word that has often been used). I worked many years, at a fairly deep level, for a Japanese corporation, where Honesty and Ethics were Principal currencies. In fact, I have been accused of being "disrespectful," when I have been entirely respectful, but unyielding. There are a lot of people that consider the definition of "respect" to read "Bends over and squeals for me."

I can deal with discourtesy, if it is honest discourtesy, but you won't get anything but honesty and courtesy from me (believe me, that has not always been the case, but I don't like to fight all the time, like I used to). These will, of course, be accompanied by very ethical behavior (which, sadly, does not mean that I'm a "doormat").

If you want to live your own life on different terms, then knock yourself out. We probably won't cross paths, much.

[Dumblydorr]

"Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects"

This is easily refuted. Being polite is socially expected, therefore being rude is unexpected. When you're rude, people take it personally, and it creates anxiety, anger, and rage, because it is unexpected and frankly, unnecessary.

There's just no situation I can imagine where being rude and impolite helps. Every social situation is ameliorated by the engine oil that is kindness. People are happier, more willing to help, more creative and flexible, all due to not yelling and not personally attacking them. Both parties in any transaction or interaction being polite is a win win.

[indymike]

Being rude and impolite is a tactic. So is being polite. There are probably times where each tactic fits.

[DanBC]

> Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects.

Politeness and respect are important patient safety issues in healthcare. A lack of politeness and respect between a healthcare team causes harm, even death, in patients.

Civility Saves Lives: https://www.civilitysaveslives.com/

[danparsonson]

> Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times

Agree with that;

> Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you

agree with that also;

> Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions

I could believe this is true, although I suspect most habitually dishonest people don't even see themselves as dishonest or think they're doing anything wrong.

None of these things are opposite to what the GP wrote though - so I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.

A classic example of the value of respect and courtesy in dealing with a difficult situation is when you have a problem with a food order at a restaurant. You can choose to shout at the person serving you, or approach the problem in a respectful and courteous way - in my experience, the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault.

Respectful discourse also gives you an easy route to backing down when it turns out you've made the mistake, and some moral high ground if you need to escalate the situation.

Finally I would also say that even if someone is behaving unpleasantly towards you, that does not necessitate an unpleasant response. They may be having a terrible day for other reasons, and a little patience gives them a chance to relax a bit and respond in a more constructive way, which is to your benefit. It's hard for someone to stay angry with you when you're treating them fairly.

[momokoko]

> in my experience, the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault.

This is exactly my point. You are using politeness as a manipulative tactic to get your way.

Instead, realize getting the wrong order at a restaurant is an incredibly insignificant issue. There was never anything to be upset about in the first place. Regardless the outcome. If someone messes up your order you just say “Looks like we have the wrong order. We ordered X”. There is zero requirement of being polite or impolite unless your goal is to manipulate the situation for your own gain.

For example if you are trying to get your meal for free now or something else they did not immediately offer. If you are a decent human being, you’ll realize the free meal probably comes out of the server’s paycheck so you don’t push for it.

See, in this case it is your actions, not whether you are polite matters.

Of course, just being a jerk maniac and screaming at someone is awful. That is no different than trying to be polite for your own advantage. Both hurt people. I was not saying you should be a jerk or that being a jerk is okay. I’m saying you don’t need to be polite as much as you need to not hurt people.

[danparsonson]

> You are using politeness as a manipulative tactic to get your way.

That's a very cynical view and not what I'm talking about at all.

Yes, people manipulate other people using politeness sometimes. Being polite does not in general make a person manipulative.

> Regardless the outcome. If someone messes up your order you just say “Looks like we have the wrong order. We ordered X”

But... your example is a polite response, albeit impersonal. This is more or less what I would say. Do we have a different definition of politeness?

> I’m saying you don’t need to be polite as much as you need to not hurt people

I agree that trying not to hurt people is the right thing to do - but using the right language can be important in achieving that. Gentle language can reduce the pressure the other person is feeling if there is a problem to resolve. That's not manipulation, it's empathy.

You highlighted the phrase I used: "the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault" - here I think we're just using language differently to each other. When I talk about getting the best outcome, I'm not talking about trying to trick someone into doing something for me. If I raise an objection, I have a specific outcome in mind - e.g. I would like my order to be fixed (and yes, this is a trivial example - in reality I would probably just eat what I'm given unless I don't like it, but in any case this is just a thought experiment). Having an outcome in mind and hoping for it to be a good outcome are not about manipulation; it's about understanding that some conversations involve transactions, and they can be concluded pleasantly and positively for all involved, or not. Manipulating someone in fact aims to achieve maximum benefit for one party at the expense of the other party, and even if it wears a "polite face" it is in fact the opposite of genuine politeness.

I feel like you and I probably actually agree but are just talking about slightly different thing. Otherwise I still don't understand what you're saying.

[alasdair_]

Your example of “Looks like we have the wrong order. We ordered X” seems perfectly polite to me.

You seem to have the opinion that basic politeness is manipulation. I suppose it can be construed as such but only in the sense that all communication is manipulation in some sense.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Here's one way to learn courtesy:

Deal with folks that are on the bad end of the stick, and consider violence to be an appropriate way to solve problems. Be someone that is trying to help them, which includes teaching them that there are other ways to resolve issues.

This kind of relationship means that we need to have an empathetic, respectful, authoritative aspect, but that we also need to realize that we could have a real, physical threat of violence directed our way, if we are not respectful and courteous (and sometimes, even then). We also need to not be doormats.

Teaches you to be polite, but firm, real quick.

[542354234235]

> If you are a decent human being, you’ll realize the free meal probably comes out of the server’s paycheck so you don’t push for it.

In the US, servers cannot be charged for free meals given out to customers. In some states, they could be charged for food mistakes, only if the mistake was directly their fault due to negligence.

> in my experience, the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault.

> This is exactly my point. You are using politeness as a manipulative tactic to get your way.

They didn’t say the best outcome for them, they said the best outcome. Being polite and showing basic respect for others generally leads to better outcomes for everyone. You sound like how a robot might look at human interactions, not understand that humans are hardwired to be social animals and social interactions are not a calculated tactic to gain advantage.

[starfallg]

>Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions.

Dishonest people don't excuse their actions by being polite, they excuse by way of a defence which justifies their behaviour erroneously (i.e. those rules don't apply to me because...).

Dishonest people being polite is just a way of manipulating targets. Them not being polite doesn't stop them from being dishonest, it just removes a tool from their toolbox.

Keep it kind that it's easy to tell if somebody is impolite, but much harder to gauge whether they are dishonest.

[rsp1984]

This. One million times. Politeness is not a signal and generally a terrible proxy to figuring out someone's integrity. While most impolite people also aren't highly ethical in their actions, the reverse (politeness + unethical behavior) is extremely common.

[tomrod]

It would be wise to separate out politeness, by which I interpret every comment here means patiently assertive, and obsequious, where one is a doormat and butler to all.

In that view, is your view of politeness as a bad signal more aligned with obsequiousness or with civil assertiveness?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It's very common to mistake courtesy and kindness for weakness.

I see it all the time.

People get very, very upset, when they find out that I'm not the doormat they had me pegged to be.

It's fun, when that happens.