[NineStarPoint]

It’s also worth noting that people who are in poverty often don’t have the option to talk back in the work place. They’re scared for a reason, if they talk back and get fired they lose their apartment. They can’t feed their kids. So on. And the sort of jobs that people in poverty have to work aren’t jobs that have to care about treating their employees well, they’re jobs that have no issue finding new cogs to place in the machine. You can’t hope that the people who are barely living in our society would be able to break this feedback loop. Instead we’d have to find a way to build a society where people have less reason to fear.

Then yes, these habits about how to treat the work place get passed onto kids. And it takes a lot of mental work to relearn things deeply ingrained in you from childhood. This is the second issue, where it would take generations for the bad effects to actually disappear. There are no quick fixes to systemic issues.

[kevas]

Your comment only talks about their current job and not the jobs that they’ll have in the future if one dedicates themselves to spending time after work and family to learning a new skill that will promote them to another career or position.

I completely agree that in roles where you are at the bottom of the totem, you can’t talk back since one is replaceable at that level. However, it’s not about speaking up at that job, rather leanings the skills needed to get another job where you’re not at the bottom of the totem.

I was in this position and I despised it.

I’m not saying it’s easy; I’m not saying that the internal fight to watch tv/relax instead of the more difficult task of studying/learning will ever stop, but what I’m saying is that there are tools available to everyone who asks for it.

What I’d love to know more about is how can one change their outlook in a systematic way? How can people who don’t have the notion of they can be more, be more? How.... so many questions.

[NineStarPoint]

The problem is that the habits people learn at their first few jobs will carry forward into jobs where the ability to talk back is an advantage, and that fixing that requires a lot of effort and either deep introspection or a good mentor who will notice the issues. By the time the issue is fixed, those who entered the system without the issues will be years or decades ahead in their careers.

Yes, someone from poverty can overcome these issues with a combination of effort and luck. But it’s hard to do, and many either don’t try or fail. This is a waste of human potential, where someone who maybe could have done better given a better starting environment loses out just due to the circumstances of their birth. Anyone who could have had a billion dollar idea and ends up hurt by their circumstances is a loss to us as a society. The tools are available for everyone who asks for it, but many are born such that they’d never trust the system enough to ask for it.

I guess I would phrase it as the difference between “their is societal mobility, in that people from any start can improve their lot” and “there is societal mobility, in that people from any start have equal opportunity as those born at the top to be successful.” America has the first, but is very far away from the second. I doubt it’s actually possible to reach the second completely of course, just get closer to it.

In the end I agree. How we actually fix this is full of so many questions. As far as America is concerned, I believe the “right to work” laws that allow firing without reason probably deeply increase the fear of those at all levels of the totem pole, but especially those close to poverty. Of course that’s just one of many issues, and repealing those laws creates economic inefficiency in making it hard to fire poor performers. Which has worse side effects is debatable, and there are endless questions indeed.

[gbh444g]

Are you sure they have any energy or time left after work?