[tarstarr]

There are many financial services companies which are supportable. For example, Clearbanc, a financial services company, uses multiple Stripe products. We try to help users by offloading some of the regulatory and compliance work to us, but as you are aware regulation in financial services is complicated and nuanced. I can’t speculate on each possible use case serially, but we’re interested in hearing specifics and trying to support more legitimate fintech businesses versus less with this product.

As for handling exceptions on individual transactions: this is something which Stripe does very frequently with respect to our Stripe Connect users. For example, we might need to inquire about a large payment made over a Stripe Connect platform, particularly if it appears out-of-character for their usage or for that platform. (We might have questions about a million dollar “pizza” order.) Depending on our specific business relationship with the platform, the flow might be the platform reaching out to the customer for documentation, it might be the platform reviewing information provided contemporaneously with the transaction, it might involve us reviewing metadata on the transaction, or it might involve us reaching out to the user.

Depending on the specifics of what a platform does, it might have internal compliance or fraud teams. Many of our large platforms do; we interface with them (and create interfaces for them) to maximize their effectiveness and minimize silliness.

[an_opabinia]

> Clearbanc, a financial services company, uses multiple Stripe products

If Clearbanc tried to use a Stripe product today, it obviously uses the words "investor" and "Fund me" on its landing pages, "democratize access to capital," - so it sounds like crowdfunding, even though I know Clearbanc's business isn't. Your contractor compliance team would say no, but a Stripe W2, who is equipped for this kind of nuance, would say yes.

However: "We provide the capital to grow and, in return, are paid a percentage of revenue until we are paid back plus a small 6% - 12% fee... no dilution, no board seats" is clearly describing a loan. Here's a link (1) to an SEC filing where in plain language a Clearbanc loan recipient describes receiving a "loan" from Clearbanc. So it's clearly a "lending instruments" and credit service, in violation of your AUP, no doubt about it, you even use the word lending instrument to provide the flexibility to account for this sort of stuff. And here, a contractor would not be able to figure out what I just did - they'd say, "oh their landing page is not using the word loan, which is a keyword in my script" - but a W2 would!

I get it, you want to have it both ways, I get that reality is just, "It is case by case, and in reality, we decide for (1) totally random reasons, like whether or not you are reviewed by a contractor or an educated W2, and (2) the cut of your jib." Maybe you guys permit loans in Stripe Connect.

Maybe these Clearbanc guys really did invoke some kind of magic, by not using the word loan but instead using the word advance and fees, even though their own Fast Company article says loan and the recipients (correctly) account for and legally define the money they received from Clearbanc as a loan. I don't know. It's actually really surprising and I'm trying to cut to the core of the AUP question and why it generates so many problems for you guys.

Is your real takeaway: "Oh, I can't say specific companies." I believe this is wrong! I think you should not be afraid to say Clearbanc, and then find out they make loans, and you should be able to just say, "No to AngelList and no to TransferWise." It's not that big of a deal that Clearbanc makes loans, which is against your AUP, you can work with whomever you want! Which is really what I'm getting at, which is to facilitate a conversation, something between educated people who aren't trying to gotcha each other, that is what we're having, about what the potential of the platform is - not a situation where, oh man, what do I put into this "What do you want to build with Stripe Treasury" box on the invite form? Because if I put in the wrong keywords, I am shut out from something really useful to me, not because I am doing something weird and want to skirt compliance, but because it is free.

(1) https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001700895/000114420... "During 2018, the Company entered into several loan agreements with Clearbanc in the amount of $670,443, bearing interest ranging from 9.25% to 15%. Interest expense on these loans totaled $26,560 for the year ended December 31, 2018. The unpaid principal balance was $291,214 as of December 31, 2018."

[derefr]

I'm confused. Are you trying to say that Stripe is violating their own policies by offering a clearing-house API to facilitate their customers getting loans from banks?

Or are you trying to say that a Stripe customer would be in violation of Stripe's policies, if they used this facilitaton-of-loans to provide loans to their own customers?

Because I think the first statement is obviously false; and the second statement is obviously true, but vacuous — in that that's not the service that Stripe is offering. (Or, I mean, it could be in special cases, but it's not pitched that way because for most companies doing that would be a legal impossibility.)

Obviously, Stripe can hook your company up with a bank; and obviously, that bank can offer your company some loans. Those two processes, separately, are entirely normal things that happen every day in the financial world. Combining them doesn't change that.

Obviously (to me, at least), your company cannot take a loan offered by a bank, and repackage that same loan to your own customers as part of your offering as if it was from you, with your company controlling+mediating that relationship — at least, not without you yourself being legally reclassified as a bank. (Which is why that's not what Stripe itself is doing here. They're just facilitating already-legitimate transactions between banks and businesses, without owning or mediating those transactions.)

And that fact has nothing to do with any company's policies, Stripe's or otherwise; that just has to do with what activities are only legal for banks to do. Stripe isn't filtering these customers out. They're just telling them that they can't take do X with service Y Stripe provides, because they're not banks, and only banks can legally do X, regardless of how.

[rsync]

"I'm confused. Are you trying to say that Stripe is violating their own policies by offering a clearing-house API to facilitate their customers getting loans from banks?"

I think your parent is expressing (among other things) frustration about the fact that Stripe is presenting this product as a very modern, very Internet-based, very progressive product that we expect will be governed by the same kind of opaque, sometimes capricious enforcement of ToS/AUP that google uses to unexpectedly lock people out of their gmail accounts or "de-monetize" their youtube accounts for no discernible reasons ...

... but at the same time, this isn't a free email account and it isn't a video service - it's serious, grownup business involving real money.

So the question becomes, what kind of people are manning the back end infrastructure and how much of it is driven by algorithms ? As your parent describes, he can go to an actual bank and sit down with a real employee and have a substantive conversation with nuance and understanding ... which you can't have with an algorithm.