[jazzyk]

So efficient = working 12 hrs/day and being able to afford everything ready-made/shipped for/to you (frozen and flavorless, on occasion past expiration date).

Even if you have an exciting/fulfilling job (a relative rarity) it gets old very quickly after a few years because most people need some variety in their lives.

Every time I vacation in southern Europe, I love going to markets, picking fruit/vegetables, having prosciutto cut for me. I think the time you claim it takes exagerrated - usually there are 1-2 people in line.

People dream to retire and tend to their garden (very "inefficient"), cooking their meals from scratch everyday, etc.

Lots of cooking shows and shows like "Escape to the country" (BBC) seem to prove my point.

[crazygringo]

What are you even talking about?

Most people work 8 hrs/day, not 12. If you go to your local supermarket, you'll see tons of people shopping for fresh produce and meat, not frozen or flavorless or expired (???).

You're inventing a total straw man. Yes some people work 12 hour days and eat frozen food but it's a small minority.

If spending lots of time at markets is what you enjoy, that do that. That's what farmer's markets in the US are for. But lots of people prefer to spend their free time doing other things they enjoy. Farmer's markets can get old very quickly too. Sometimes people want to spend just 5 minutes grabbing some ingredients and checking out to make a quick dinner, not 30 minutes visiting different stalls, waiting for the three people ahead of you at each one, and then haggling over prices.

[jazzyk]

Not inventing anything.

Northeast US:

Office hours: 9-6pm -> 9 hours (yes, includes "lunch" where people get a sandwich and eat it at the desk) Note that many people work longer, till 7pm or 8pm (startups, etc). Many people need 2 jobs to pay the bills.

Average commute time: 45 mins (you can google it) x 2 E-mail checking/responding at home after the kids go to bed: 1 hr

Total: 11.5 hrs easily (or more if you want to climb the corporate ladder)

So market-browsing/cooking is not your thing - that's fine. But let me just note that we invented all these life "efficiencies" - and are less and less happy (loneliness, drugs, etc).

What's the point?

[jonfw]

> But let me just note that we invented all these life "efficiencies" - and are less and less happy (loneliness, drugs, etc).

There are quite a lot of non-packaging related factors that also play into this

[jazzyk]

Absolutely, but since we are off-topic, let's just leave it at that.

[mikem170]

So how about we add the cost of proper disposal to that cheese? It is inefficient and unfair to pass the cost of someone's cheese to everyone else now and for three hundred years. Then if you have the money you don't have to wait in line. Does that sound fair?

[Broken_Hippo]

We do pay for proper disposal - Often through taxes that go towards waste disposal, but some folks pay direct. The cheese plant pays for this sort of thing too. It simply isn't entirely in the cost of the cheese itself. If things aren't getting properly handled, unfortunately that is a political issue with legal solutions.

Having someone slice the cheese at a counter comes with its own risks: Have they cleaned properly? Are they treated fairly? Is the price going to go up because now places need a staffed deli, sinks, and equipment? Will it be just deli products or is everything in the grocery store going to be more expensive to pay for this extra stuff? Heck, what sort of impact is all of this stuff going to have on the environment?

I'll add that no matter what, we all are paying for things that we, personally, don't do, haven't consumed, or disagree with. It is part of living in a society. If you buy a pair of pants, you are covering the cost of theft and loss. If you go to the doctor, you are paying for other people's care in addition to your own (heck, that's what health insurance is). You may or may not feel you get much back for your tax money, which is really dependent on where you live in the world.

[crazygringo]

Whether it's prosciutto or cheese, of course. It's a common view among economists that externalities, including environmental ones, ought to be factored into costs. It's an unfair subsidy, exactly as you describe, when they're not.

[mikem170]

I'm an optimist, I assume we'll get there eventually.