[cloudinshape]

> You take your fiat and you invest it and nothing you say below the first paragraph matters.

If only.

The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford.

> The issue is that people don’t have money, and they don’t have wealth. This is strictly a social problem.

What do you think money is? Money is how societies choose to interact with each other; in a sense, money IS society, at the very least money is the first brick on which to build one. The government printing money and using it to pay for political favors (via military or natural resources contracts, monopoly markets, etc.) is at the core of the wealth gap.

> Replacing one inflationary currency with a worse distribution than a banana republic, with a different deflationary currency with a worse distribution than a banana republic changes nothing.

You don't understand what bitcoin is. Bitcoin's advantage is that the inflation rate is not controlled by the government, ie. they can't print money to buy stuff they can't afford, With bitcoin, governments can't print the wealth gap.

[arcticbull]

> The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford.

If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back.

> ...what do you think money is?

Money is an intentionally lossy temporary store or value and a medium of exchange. Interact, yes. Store long term, no.

If you have problems with monetary policy vote in a new government, just taking your ball to the BVI isn’t a solution.

> ...you don’t understand what Bitcoin is.

I understand full well, and I believe those are bad things. Deflation is bad, for the reason I stated, and an inability to print means an inability to respond to geopolitical shocks (like COVID, for instance Canada has been paying everyone $2000/month this whole time). Not to mention an inability to grow supply with the entry of new market participants.

Bitcoin cannot and will not change the wealth gap when it’s overwhelmingly spoken for already. The best you can do is sentence your children to fight for scraps while the new moneyed class of criminals and lowlifes continues to grow in relative wealth as a fraction of economic activity by doing literally nothing with their money - backed on an inflation schedule created and managed not by economists or experts but a narcotics smuggler and a bunch of random GitHub contributors.

If you really want to change society for the better, run for office, don’t shill magic beans.

[georgesC]

The fact that so many people don't know that cash/fiat is losing value over time makes it somewhat of a problem. Furthermore the creation of cash/fiat creates high benefits to those that benefits from the newly created money first, before the money spreads and devalues its value due to inflation over time.

Inflation vs deflation debate is a complicated one, I don't know which is best in terms of enabling technical progress. One is more short termist, another is more long termist.

But fiat/inflated currencies won't go away. It's just that those kinds of currencies just tends to blow up at some point because of inflation and human nature. It's more than nice to have other options, especially digital. The idea to have some kind of worldwide standard that is open and won't change is also nice.

[arcticbull]

Not changing is nice conceptually but very bad in practice because the real world changes. It doesn’t map. It’s one of those software engineering tendencies to rewrite instead of understand and improve.

One side note though. Consider that inflation doesn’t affect the poor as the poor live paycheck to paycheck and wages in the US have kept pace with inflation. The wealthy don’t hold cash, they invest. Even cash tends to be held in a savings account with at least partially offsets inflationary pressure. Has it impacted anyone materially? I’d love to see some quantification.

[georgesC]

In practice, I'd say "selected" lower level standards aren't changed but built upon. Standard tools also tends to not change much. web protocols, C, C++, php, those are not getting away despite many attempts to reinvent the wheel. Maybe someone will make a better wheel one day, or maybe not, but for me it's nice to have a starting point in the domain of p2p "exchange" that may or may not be adopted as a standard.

As for inflation, it makes it harder for the poor workers to become wealthier, but the issue is more when it stops being sustainable. Inflationary fiat has proven that it could fail. I personally don't trust those persons handling it and I feel that such sentiment is growing among people. There's reasons behind that. That is terrible for a currency. Governments may or may not start having a better monetary policy. We don't have guarantees and much control over it, that's the issue for me. I'd rather avoid an economical disaster and keep a business running than having to deal with the failure of others.

[arcticbull]

Each of the languages you called out have changed dramatically to respond to the needs of users, which Bitcoin cannot, has not and will not do. You’re basically advocating for K&R C forever.

Re inflation again, has no impact on poor workers. The amount of value transferred to them in exchange for work is purely social policy and fiscal policy not monetary policy. You can improve workers mobility by supporting unions and minimum wage, not by changing the inflation characteristics of their medium of exchange they don’t get to hold on to anyways. None of your criticisms matter if you’ve invested your fiat.

[georgesC]

Bitcoin can change depending on the need of the users, assuming it's something accepted by them, which sounds fair to me.

As for the inflation/fiat it just seems to me that you keep ignoring the possibility of a failure of such system. A failure of such system would for sure have terrible consequences and the poor unlike the wealthier will have harder times. Investing the fiat is a good idea, not something remotely popular in my country alas. Here, saving mostly means saving money at the bank (which devalues over time). No wonder why they feel they're losing purchasing power. People who work shall earn wealth simply put, not diminished wealth if they don't learn about financial tricks from someone they trust.

[cloudinshape]

> If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back.

Bernie Maddoff said the same thing. He also tried to create a perpetual motion machine.

> Canada has been paying everyone $2000/month this whole time)

Canada has been lending everyone $2000/month this whole time.

> Bitcoin cannot and will not change the wealth gap when it’s overwhelmingly spoken for already.

Again, you don't understand what bitcoin is, nor money apparently. People don't stash money away, not all of it anyways, and specially not when its inflation rate is limited (as in there is not a lot of excess to stash like right now), they use it to buy stuff, to pay for stuff, to invest in stuff, they enjoy it, that is why you want money in the first place! Money is, was and always will be exchanged, which means it changes hands. Odd concept, I know.

> backed on an inflation schedule created and managed not by economists or experts but a narcotics smuggler and a bunch of random GitHub contributors.

Yes, the "experts" managing the "economy" right now are doing such a great job.

> just taking your ball to the BVI isn’t a solution.

At some point, sooner rather than later by the looks of it, it will be the only solution.

> If you really want to change society for the better, run for office, don’t shill magic beans.

Weird advice from someone convinced we'll never have to pay back our debts.

[arcticbull]

> Bernie Maddoff said the same thing. He also tried to create a perpetual motion machine.

Bernie Madoff doesn't get to print his own currency, you see why that's different right? You know who does though? Tether.

> Canada has been lending everyone $2000/month this whole time.

Paying. Lending implies that it has to be returned, it does not.

> Again, you don't understand what bitcoin is, nor money apparently.

Incorrect, I know what money is for and how it works. I don't disagree with anything you said about money. What I disagree with is that inflation matters in that context. It does not. I also see Bitcoin as having been spoken for already, and it has. with a worse wealth distribution than a banana republic, which it has.

> Yes, the "experts" managing the "economy" right now are doing such a great job.

Inflation has been in a tightly controlled 1-2% range in the US since the 1970s. They are. So forgive me for not giving a bunch of un-elected, un-accountable randos with commit privileges and a narcotics trafficker the steering wheel lol.

> At some point, sooner rather than later by the looks of it, it will be the only solution.

Agree to disagree.

> Weird advice from someone convinced we'll never have to pay back our debts.

Who is "our" and why does one have anything to do with the other?

[cloudinshape]

> Bernie Madoff doesn't get to print his own currency, you see why that's different right? You know who does though? Tether.

As I said, you don’t understand money. Currency is not wealth. Purchasing power cannot be printed, despite what MMT claims real wealth has to be produced using real resources. You can print all the dollars you want, in fact, that is exactly what the monopoly board game creators do.

> Paying. Lending implies that it has to be returned, it does not.

As I said, again, you don’t understand what money is. Under the current system all money is debt. And governments have no purchasing power to give but what they confiscate from citizens via taxes in the present, or take via inflation from the future. Either way, canadians are paying those $2000 back.

> Inflation has been in a tightly controlled 1-2% range in the US since the 1970s. They are. So forgive me for not giving a bunch of un-elected, un-accountable randos with commit privileges and a narcotics trafficker the steering wheel lol.

Which is why the FED came out saying they are gonna increase the rate of inflation that has actually been lower than reported all these past years right? The inflation metrics do not represent real inflation and even the FED admitted it, nor do they capture the wealth inequality even if they did. The riots on the streets, the uncertainty, most americans living paycheck to paycheck, miles of lines at food banks, most americans not having even $400 in savings, all signs of how the experts are such experts at managing the economy right? Not even 1 week of trouble could handle this wonderful economy when covid started they had to print trillions to bail out mega corporations. Such a well managed economy right?

> Who is "our" and why does one have anything to do with the other?

You, the one that claims having a printing press and growing gdp faster than inflation means governments will outrun debts. Don’t shill magic beans.

[phatfish]

There is no getting around the fact Bitcoin is distributed in a fabulously unequal manner.

The rest of the world is going mint a set of new global elite because they mined a stack a coins when the computational cost was tiny? If crypto dream of having Bitcoin as some global reserve currency is achieved that is what will happen.

To be honest that situation is not far off the inherited wealth of a lot of the super rich families that exist now. But at least you know somewhere along the family tree something worthwhile was achieved. Their claim to wealth is not simply being on the right internet forum in 2010.

[arcticbull]

You should really go and spend some time learning about the current monetary and fiscal systems from places other than Bitcoin subreddits.

The claim that “Purchasing power cannot be printed, despite what MMT claims real wealth has to be produced using real resources” is trivially falsifiable. The M2 money supply is 15X what it was in the 1970s but inflation caused the value to drop to 1/7th. That means net new buying power was in fact created - doubled even. The reason is you have too simplistic an understanding of money. Velocity of money matters.

There’s actually a term for excess value created through the addition of new money into the supply which eludes me right now.

> Either way, canadians are paying those $2000 back.

You have way too simplistic a take on the current financial system. Money is a social construct.

> The inflation metrics do not represent real inflation and even the FED admitted it, nor do they capture the wealth inequality even if they did.

lol, inflation is defined in terms of a specific basket of goods and services. If they want to redefine the baskets that’s fine but there’s no such thing as real inflation and fake inflation any more than there’s real math and fake math. If you want, talking about quality of life, standard of living, all that — that’s a much more interesting topic and again 100% social policy not monetary.

> Such a well managed economy right?

Yep! Well managed money supply. Well managed economy, I’m not sure Id go that far but they are two different things.

> You, the one that claims having a printing press and growing gdp faster than inflation means governments will outrun debts. Don’t shill magic beans.

You’ve hopelessly entangled a temporary medium of exchange and a long-term store of value in your brain. This has confused your understanding of economics. Spend less time in Bitcoin subreddits.

Growing gdp faster than debt does allow you never to pay it off, this principal is one that extends from personal finance. If you have an interest only loan all you ever need to pay is the interest. If the growth in the loan interest remains lower than the growth in your income (or inflation) it’s not in your interest to pay back that loan. Doing so increases opportunity cost. You get that right?

I could pay off my whole mortgage today but I won’t. Because I can do more with that money, and expect a better return than mortgage interest minus inflation. So, I refinanced. Thanks to inflation and tax deductions, my real interest rate is almost 0%.

[anythingdude321]

Run for office? I prefer the trim tab approach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tab#Trim_tab_as_a_metapho...

If Bitcoiners are right, Satoshi has been the trim tab of the century thus far. Time will tell :)

[arcticbull]

Satoshi is likely Paul Le Roux. Let’s hope not. He’s managed to waste more of our time, money and brainpower than anyone in recent memory.

Either way my point remains that Bitcoin solves nothing other than making criminals wealthy.

Time will tell.

[seibelj]

You have been grinding this axe so hard it's almost gone at this point. When BTC is 30k, 50k, 100k you will still be tilting at windmills, and no one will care. You are so wrong and incorrect on nearly everything you type, you must be an absolutely insufferable person to deal with.

[arcticbull]

I could not care less what price Bitcoin ends up at, it will not change the garbage fundamentals, or my opinion of it, nor should it change yours. There's tons of different ways to make money investing, and I stick to traditional markets. Tesla has seen a 15X increase in value over the last year, Square 20X since 2016.

I suspect I may be insufferable when I see something that's just a giant waste of time, power, energy, effort and brain power, and I'm not mad about that.

I do wish you the best of luck making money, however you choose to do so!