[Arnavion]

People have these conversations about Windows all the time. And it's usually worse when it comes to Windows because the software is closed both in the "source" sense and the "visibility" (logs, etc) sense, so nobody has any idea what to do except "try restarting", "try reinstalling the software", "try reinstalling Windows".

(No idea about Macs; I don't pay attention to conversations about them.)

[59nadir]

They really, really don't. This is one area where Stockholm syndrome usually kicks in hard for people who desperately want it to be true that Linux is polished and ready for the masses. Truthfully, I think I have the same issues on Linux nowadays as I had in the late 00's, just less consistently.

The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. Open source has done very little to remove inconsistencies and all three of your "try ..." remain very relevant with tons of software on Linux.

Having used a Windows 10 box primarily for the last two years I can say there are way less issues and way less blockers involved when using Windows for development than Linux. I'm almost mad I didn't give up on Linux as a daily driver earlier, because in hindsight it really wasn't a productive experience.

[iforgotpassword]

They merely said other platforms have issues too, not that linux doesn't have any. It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you. I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall. So where does that leave us? Exactly the "Linux meme" mentioned a few comments up.

[59nadir]

> It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you.

I didn't say "Windows always works for me", but rather that these imagined conversations about issues like these aren't a regular fixture among Windows users. The perceived polish of Linux that supposedly made things like these much rarer is just that, perceived.

Windows doesn't always work perfectly, it just works for hundreds of times more people way more of the time than Linux. You seem to take someone calling this a "meme" as saying it's not real. It's not a joke as much as it's just something that is and something that naturally happens in an ecosystem where nothing is made to work with anything else.

> I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall.

I've had equivalents of these (unbootable computer after an update being the most exact match) with OS X. It doesn't mean that OS X isn't all-in-all a much more well put together operating system than Linux + userland or Windows. Does that mean it's perfect? No. But let's at least establish that Linux is nowhere near close to offering the same quality experience overall as neither OS X or Windows, even in a ballpark sense.

As an additional point to this: Do you believe, once non-enthusiasts start using Linux, that issues will be more or less visible? I know what my bet is.

[iforgotpassword]

> You seem to take someone calling this a "meme" as saying it's not real.

My take on this was that this is generally a moot way of discussing a complex software setup because it usually doesn't get any more specific than that. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a certain tech stack neither works for everybody nor nobody, be it Linux- or Windows-land.

> I didn't say "Windows always works for me", but rather that these imagined conversations about issues like these aren't a regular fixture among Windows users

Might have misread that then.

Likewise yes Linux definitely isn't a flawless experience compared to OSX or Windows, but I do however think that Windows is getting worse in that regard since a few years now (less internal QA because of telemetry?), there were a few pretty severe issues with updates, while at the same time Linux is making progress. Which brings me back to

> It's not a joke as much as it's just something that is and something that naturally happens in an ecosystem where nothing is made to work with anything else.

That is the root cause indeed with Linux, the user space really. It's not coordinated by a central authority, so you don't get a smooth experience combining arbitrary components in arbitrary versions. This is where distros come into play. They go through the pain to pick a combination of components at a certain version and make them work together with a sledgehammer. If you only ever use the package manager to install software, you will have an experience on par with windows or osx, but it's love it or leave it. Need anything that's not offered there and you have a good chance of messing things up.

Regarding your last point: My bet is on the web, eventually casual users only need a browser, which even linux can manage to offer you without blowing up, but then a Chromebook is probably what people go with.

[I_complete_me]

> It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome: but I recently came across this one by Ken Dodd: "Just read a book about Stockholm Syndrome. It started off badly but by the end I really liked it."

[Arnavion]

>The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all.

"pulseaudio doesn't work" meme in 2020, lol.

Windows audio is a completely solved problem, right? Let's see some web search results for variations of "windows audio problem":

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings-winpc/volume-control-at-100-cant-mute-or-reduce-sound/f54ce430-1a73-410a-8abc-720c5e73cfaa

>Then... I called Dell. Spent FOUR HOURS on the phone last night, resetting/restoring operating system. Not fixed.

---

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10-73025246-b61c-40fb-671a-2535c7cd56c8

>3. Verify that all Windows Updates are installed

>6. Fix your audio drivers

>9. Restart Audio Services

>11. Restart to apply installed updates

---

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/audio-problems-after-windows-10-update/c4586688-176f-41ef-9be8-33748a811fc3

>In this case I would look to reinstall the manufacturer audio drivers as they have probably been replaced by Windows 10 built in drivers.

>ok after testing this on several games the sound is noticeably better but not completely normal should i download another driver ?

---

Some lets-players I watch regularly complain about how W10 updates break their audio capture / microphone settings. They work around it by uninstalling the update and trying as hard as possible to not let it be reinstalled automatically.

---

Like I said, not only are there problems, but nobody knows how to figure out what the problem is. Just "run the built-in troubleshooter" (which both clueful and clueless Windows users will tell you rarely fixes anything), "update your drivers", "install Windows updates", "restart your computer".

When I have issues with OSS on Linux, I have logs with filenames and distinctive error messages, publicly viewable sources that I can correlate the logs to if I want to, and forums of other people who can do that if I don't. If it's an absolutely novel problem, I can contact the authors of the code and have a high expectation of getting a response. If it's an issue that needs a fix, I can track the progress and release of the fix.

And before you say "I don't have any of these problems with audio on Windows", I too haven't had any problems with pulseaudio for the almost 10 years that I've used it.

[naikrovek]

If you are arguing that Windows audio is as troublesome as Linux audio, I think you'll find a lot of people willing to debate you.

The windows troubleshooters will fix the things they are designed to fix. They're just powershell scripts with a wizard-style interface. I've had them fix many networking issues on certain computers reliably. I haven't ever had an audio problem on Windows that wasn't caused by me, so I've never needed to run an audio troubleshooter for audio.

Windows has log files too, you just need to know where to look. Usually event viewer will have what you need, but sometimes you'll need to run a diagnostic that generates logs, or you'll just need to know where the logs are.

[girvo]

I have never, not once, in two plus decades of Windows usage had the troubleshooter fix anything.

[naikrovek]

How often do you try them?

Saying "Windows troubleshooters never work" will often lead to someone never trying Windows troubleshooters, which only reinforces the idea that they never work.

None of them are perfect, of course, and none of them will fix any given problem, but I always try them first, even if I have low hopes for success. Sometimes I am surprised. Sometimes I have to find a fix for myself.

[_a1_]

Troubleshooters never worked for me as well. It's hard NOT to try a troubleshooter, because it's suggested by Windows on every occasion, but after I've discovered that "troubleshooting" in Windows terms means "first try restarting the service, then try restarting the computer, then try reinstalling windows" then indeed I've stopped trying them completely.

I mean, if the user doesn't change system settings at all and uses external drives for their cat pictures then reinstalling the system isn't such a bad advice. The problem is that if someone uses Linux, then this person isn't satisfied with this style of system usage.

[bzb6]

I don’t see these conversations about Windows anywhere, and Windows has lots of logs if you know where to look (the Event Viewer is a great start)

[nix23]

Oh yeah the logs of Windows are great:

Exception Code 0xc0156734 ...Thanks Microsoft, now i need bing to find google, just to find 1000's of "registry cleaners" and "Antivirus" sites to find out whats wrong or what that error even means.

[ed25519FUUU]

How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to?

This is coming from a Linux fan, and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. I stick with macOS not because I want to but because I have to.

[nix23]

>How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to?

That probably counts for Android too? No?

>and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that.

Na i don't believe you that you are a "technical user"