[crazygringo]

There aren't really that many ways to do notifications.

If you want something that pops up on a large screen but isn't overly intrustive, a rectangle with text in it in the corner next to a menu icon to control them is what you're going to come up with.

And if you're Apple it'll be a rounded rectangle.

And Apple absolutely did not rip off Growl "pixel for pixel", the visual styles are totally different. I don't know where you even got that from?

[thewebcount]

Not only that, but Apple already had a similar feature in MacOS 8 and 9 that Growl was reproducing in OS X. It seems like Apple just hadn't gotten around to putting it in OS X yet because other things were more important. Then eventually they had time and added it.

[ChrisGrowl]

I never used macOS until OS X and most definitely did not copy it. Nothing about Growl was a copy of that.

Growl was inspired from being project manager on Adium and worked with the people making colloquy. The devs on colloquy were working on notifications and so we’re we and I thought it was smarter to make it a separate tool.

[SwimSwimHungry]

Hey Chris, for what it's worth, your software was quite a lifesaver for me in my earlier OS X days back in college. Your software had great impact on my workflow and I'll never forget it. :)

[ChrisGrowl]

Happy to hear it. We’re totally didn’t know what we were doing really, just making something we wanted.

[kergonath]

It just illustrates how natural the concept is. I don’t mean that in a bad way; it’s such an elegant solution and I would not be surprised to see other implementations before MacOS 9.

Anyway, Growl did much more than that, and I don’t think there is any doubt Apple’s current implementation owes a lot to your design.

[ChrisGrowl]

Yea I just wanted to clear up the inspiration bit. I’m sure if we hadn’t done it someone else would have.

[thewebcount]

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

[kps]

Not very similar. If you wanted a message, the OS put up a modal dialogue blocking everything else. The whole point of Growl was that it didn't interrupt you, and you could have its messages go away on their own.

[kergonath]

There were these yellow messages that popped up in the upper right-hand corner in MacOS 9. Those were just non-blocking notifications.

[thewebcount]

Exactly. They look a lot like Growl and the macOS X notifications and were not modal.

[eyelidlessness]

Wait wat? I’m not disputing this but I came up on MacOS (it wasn’t even named that at the time, I believe I got started on System 6) and I never saw notifications like that.

[webwielder2]

Around Mac OS 9, they changed some types of errors from modal dialogs to floating palettes in the corner of the screen.

[ChrisGrowl]

I’ve never seen these before. Sounds interesting but not the inspiration for Growl by any means. :)

[armadsen]

All great design innovations seem dead obvious in hindsight. But they're not.

[seanwilson]

Sometimes the design space is so limited though (I'm talking in general here), multiple people will inevitably arrive at similar designs. I've felt this myself with mobile design which can be really constrictive. Once you enumerate obvious interface variations, weigh up pros/cons, discard the obviously bad ones, iterate a little etc. you can come up with something you think is unique but has been done many times before.

I was designing a mobile paint app for example and had to make choices like how you bring up the colour picker, move layers, change tools, preview brush settings etc. There's only so many ways to do certain things on a tiny screen.

[crazygringo]

Huh? Notifications that pop up in the corner aren't a "great design innovation". They are an obvious one.

Just because there are some non-obvious great design innovations out there, doesn't mean every little interface component is one. Some things are just the logical solution to a problem.

[wpietri]

Oh? In your estimation, how many years passed between Growl being technically possible and it actually existing?

I was using NeXT OS, which is what later became OS X, circa 1990. Growl apparently launched in 2003. So that's a minimum of 13 years that something "obvious" was missed. And it's probably more fair to count from the mid-1980s, when GUIs first started becoming popular. That doesn't sound obvious to me.

Most things are obvious in retrospect. But it's a mistake to confuse your after-the-fact perspective for what was going on at the time. (For those who are interested, Dekker's "Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error'" is a great look at how subtle and dangerous that confusion can be.)

[Someone]

I don’t think it’s that easy.

Timing is a factor, too. For such a thing to be successful, you also need a OS/hardware combo that can draw the notification without slowing down using the main window (rules out early Mac OS) and users who think the added distraction of notifications is worth it. I would that added distraction goes down with screen size. I doubt it would have been a success on 640×480 displays, for example.

Also, Apple had something similar in 1997 or 1999, with Mac OS 8 or 9.

[wpietri]

Fair point. 1984 is probably too early. But the NeXT, which was launched in 1988, meets the technical criteria: big screen, fast display rendering, background processes. It had ongoing notification via the dock. And as somebody who used them then, background notifications would have been way better than interruptive modal dialogs seizing the foreground, which were the common UI choice.

[crazygringo]

Pop-up notifications from background processes only really became necessary once people started having a lot of internet-connected programs that needed to notify you of incoming things. Back when the only thing was your e-mail inbox, you didn't need a separate notification service.

Obviously then it was then extended for things like a long process completing, etc.

But back in 1990 or 1995, there's wasn't a need for something like Growl. Your e-mail inbox and the occasional beep and modal dialog did the job just fine.

To counter your "most things are obvious in retrospect" philosophy, you might be interested in the "multiple discovery" viewpoint [1] which says precisely the opposite -- that, extended to design, essentially says that the need for a solution becomes obvious to people at about the same time, and that people will solve it in similar ways because they're facing the same constraints.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery

[wpietri]

Modal dialogs were always terrible. They were just easy to code, and fit the common programmer mental model of code first, not user first. The NeXT folks clearly recognized that background activity was a concern given how they were using the dock to give app-specific notification. But design-wise it was a cul de sac because it required permanent screen real estate for anything that might matter.

I also don't think multiple discovery is much of a counter to "most things are obvious in retrospect". Yes, design problems can get solved in similar ways by different people. But obvious-in-retrospect thinking is a cognitive error, where we presume that what's obvious to us is obvious to people in different times and conditions.

[ChrisGrowl]

Growl did more than pop into a corner. :)

[crazygringo]

Oh absolutely. :) But I assumed the accusation that Apple copied Growl was mainly that.

Growl had so much configurability, so many options, it's not like Apple implemented really any of that!

[hibbelig]

Notifications could also be shown in the menu bar, with marquee scrolling. No need for them to pop up in a corner.

[crazygringo]

Marquee scrolling is virtually always a terrible UX pattern.

Also oftentime there is zero extra space in the menu bar.

Alerts and notifications have followed a pop-up pattern since basically forever in computing.

[hibbelig]

About the space: I was thinking the text could replace the icons on the right hand side for a short while (until the user has had the time to read it).

Emacs displays little notes in the echo area at the bottom of the screen, though those are always (?) triggered by user actions and do not come from background activity. Which also qualifies as "since basically forever", I would say.