[matthewdgreen]

I think it’s amusing that the takeaway from this episode is “the intelligence agencies screwed up” and not “the intelligence agencies found no evidence, and then were directly pressured by their political masters to construct evidence to justify a desired military outcome.”

[ABeeSea]

It wasn’t even a real intelligent agency that drummed up support for war. It was a temporary agency created by Rumsfelds and Cheney with the Orwellian name of “Office of Special Plans.” They deliberately lied and misused raw intelligence signals to force us to war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans

[scottlocklin]

There's some CIA disinfo right there. Rumsfeld and the neocon claque certainly ginned it up. The spooks though, said it would be a "slam dunk" that there would be WMD in Iraq. Here's Tenet grousing he was quoted:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cia-slamdunk-idUSN264...

[peanutz454]

So season 2 of TV Series 24 aired between October 29, 2002 May 20, 2003. Its main theme was US govt using fabricated evidence to attack middle eastern countries. The Office of Special Plans (OSP) existed from September 2002 to June 2003.

[eirki]

Reminds me of the "House of Special Purpose"

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Special_...

[alasdair_]

The intelligence agencies repeatedly highlighted that the information was dubious at best.

The politically appointed heads of the intelligence agencies used this information to lie to the American public.

[artificialLimbs]

If the people at the agency had integrity, they would have immediately brought these concerns up the chain or public.

[skissane]

Who is to say they didn't bring them up the chain, and the chain just ignored them?

Try to bring issues to the public and they'll charge you with "espionage"/"mishandling classified information"/etc. Even if the charges don't succeed, you'll lose your career and the court case will ruin you.

[n0nc3]

Not just a court case though, an investigation or a "psych eval" are enough to ruin someone. Take a look at Russ Tice.

Also, read Ronan Farrow's piece from the New Yorker last week. They targeted a straight-laced DOJ lawyer with >20 years of experience. These organizations are out of control and pose a very serious threat to our freedom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tice

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/09/how-a-cia-cove...

[cycomanic]

Thanks for posting this great article in the new yorker!

[harry8]

>Who is to say they didn't bring them up the chain, and the chain just ignored them?

And that is why those senior public servants with power in security agencies hate wikileaks and are willing to trash the constitutional protections for journalists to get Assange and also want to destroy Snowden so very badly.

[lostcolony]

See: Edward Snowden

[zhengyi13]

See Deep Throat, while you're at it.

[mumblemumble]

Here, let me save y'all from the results of a Google search for that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(Watergate)

[alasdair_]

They did. And they did again.

And the public had literally millions of people on the streets shouting about it.

And we still went to war anyway.

[mapmap]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_C._Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair

[techer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert)

[skissane]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93East_Timor_s...

Australia and East Timor negotiated a treaty to divide up oil and gas in the sea between the two countries. Australia bugged the East Timorese government offices to get an unfair advantage in the negotiations.

The East Timorese government found about this, and then sued Australia in the Permanent Court of Arbitration to have the treaty invalidated.

An Australian intelligence agent (''Witness K''), who knew about the bugging, contacted East Timor's lawyer – Australian Bernard Collaery – offering to testify for East Timor.

The Australian government responded by cancelling Witness K's passport to stop him from testifying, raiding the offices of East Timor's lawyer, and now both of them are on trial – in secret.

[BLKNSLVR]

The word on the street that the extremity of the "in secret" part is the Director of Public Prosecutions, Christian Porter, protecting old party mate, Alexander Downer, to keep his name out of the mud for as long as possible, as it's likely he was the top of the chain of authorization for the bugging, being that he was the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time and was outspoken against East Timor for accusing Australia of spying.

The problem is that in protecting one person's reputation they're ruining the reputation of an entire country.

Shameful Australia.

[skissane]

I agree with you.

Minor factual correction though: Christian Porter is the Attorney-General, not the DPP

[stirlo]

I'm sorry but whats wrong with this?

It's exactly the job of the Australian intelligence agencies to protect for the countries interests and gain advantages where they can.

This case is even more reasonable as it's a country spying on a country so both parties have the opportunity do so.

The NSA has directly spied on corporations (Airbus) and passed the information to their own corporations (Boeing) in the past which seems less acceptable to me.

[GlennS]

There is no way East Timor has an equivalent opportunity to spy on Australia.

Australia needs these island states to stay friendly for national security reasons.

It shouldn't be taking advantage of their small and relatively unsophisticated governments to make a quick buck.

[harpiaharpyja]

I think there's an argument that kind of underhanded behaviour is not in the best interests of Australia.

[BLKNSLVR]

There's obviously something fairly deeply wrong with it, or wrong with it being known by the Australian public, given the government's efforts at suppressing it.

[ckozlowski]

You might like this article then: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/magazine/colin-powell-ira...

[EGreg]

The thing is that we are always told there is evidence, like for sure, trust us:

Assad bombed his own people

The Russians hacked the election (a very broad statement, like “let’s believe in evolution”)

North Korea hacked SONY

All at very convenient times for our moves abroad and totally nonsensical from the point of view of motivation of the ones doing it (like Assad)

It’s like they don’t even try anymore. They just say “17 intelligence agencies all concur” with each other.