[baybal2]

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history

And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history.

Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy.

Chinese people have nothing to thank communists for. Any opinion differing from this is preposterous.

[xster]

It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

When the CPC took power, the GDP per capita was 54 USD in 1952 (earliest date in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China).

If you chose your words carefully and still state "forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy", one would expect the GDP per capita to revert to 1 USD. In reality, GDP per capita grew to 89 USD in 1960, at its worst reverted to 71 USD during the height of the famine and recovered 3 years later to 98 USD.

[baybal2]

> It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

And millions of very real starving Chinese did no need your data.

Statistical data of every Eastern bloc country was faked, and the data you cite is fake.

[dirtyid]

In context of a stacked deck: century of colonial ravaging, postswar destruction and western bloc containment, the CCP had the ambition to pursue rejuvenation over stagnation and prevented the historic pattern of collapse and fragmentation. Of course there was incredible human costs, but on balance the right decisions were made. IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive. The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows. CCP today is not the same as CCP from 50 years ago, even if ideology seems to be once again converging. With exception of nuclear war, increasing comprehensive power will insulate the cost of making mistakes. There's simply more resources and tools for "harmonious" governance now, the soldiers that shot students because they didn't have access to riot gear is not going to need bullets when they have access to lethal alternatives, if social credit even allows situations to devolve that far in the first place. At the end of the day, CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most (arguably all other) countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome. Even the ones who fled and continues to flee with their wealth. There's something to be said for building indigenous nuclear, space and military program in the face of western sanctions, while simultaneously uplifting coastal populace in per capita GDP/PPP to rival the aggregate wealth and living standards of fellow developed Asian countries who got to where they are with US assistance.

[baybal2]

> IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive

And ceded 1m+ square kilometres to USSR.

> The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows

Unless the country is not steered back into the abyss, which is seemingly is the case. They blew it all.

> China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome.

Every Chinese citizen I know, hates the party with deep, deep passion, and that includes not so few party members themselves.

> CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces

You have to really turn on the TV.

I feel, you are in denial of objective reality under influence of virulent Xiism.

[dirtyid]

Yes, the CCP ceded land in majority of border settlements, but core interests were preserved. Relatively minor cost for actually mitigating external frictions seeing as how the only remaining land border India/Bhutan is causing so much shit show now not to mention SCS disputes. Or China would be in a better position had they not acceded to Mongolian independence.

>hates the party with deep, deep passion

I mean... what else is new? Not many countries with widespread support for their government, especially now, times are hard for almost everyone, everywhere. Citizens in multiparty systems hate their politicians too, they just also happen to hate rival parties more. Modernity + capitalism is stressful, personally preferable stress than being subsistence farmers. Maybe some prefer if China was contained and stagnant in an agrarian society. Most of my extended family hates the CCP, lost everything during cultural revolution. Some got fucked again during Xi's corruption crack downs. More lament at their kids future because competing in the world's largest country isn't easy. Most of them could also sell their tier1 city condos and retire comfortably in any western country as millionaires. These are people who benefited enormously from the system. People aren't rational.

>virulent Xiism

I wasn't a fan of Xi, but he inherited unfavorable geopolitical conditions and in retrospect seized the right opportunities. US pivoted to Asia before him, the relationship was always going to devolve into competition. Hide and bide was on last legs, and Trump didn't help with setting new truculence. They managed situation OK considering how this wildcard US admin was stacked with China Hawks. Pompeo isn't sailing carriers groups through the Taiwan Strait anymore, and the weapons sales are a pittance compared to the 90s.

>They blew it all

US anxiety and to rise of China threat was always going to be triggered by a combination of Chinese economy eclipsing US and scale of Chinese military buildup commiserate with 14T economy. It's inevitable. But economy and military reformed are basically at a level of appropriate competitiveness and regional deterrence to address shifting US foreign policy. Maybe another few years would help with the IC / turbojet situation, but US was cracking down on MIC2025 since Obama. 20 years ago, Chinese hated the government, worshipped the west, and couldn't dream of a world outside of western hegemony. Now they're somewhat confident about the government and recognize the west are not untouchable. Hate + confidence is an improvement. I didn't think I'd live to see the day where comfy Chinese diaspora in the west or international students want to go back, but those conversations are happening.

[CMCDragonkai]

This comment is correct. Many Chinese international students do not want to lose their Chinese passport because they believe in the economic opportunity in China.