[awak3ning]

Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve.

Imagine if these power brokers didn't exist and a whole generation of children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC. Huge opportunity cost for society in my opinion.

[qchris]

I was discussing this with someone yesterday. A materials engineering PhD candidate, who took an engineering coding class during undergrad, but found everything so complicated that she never looked back and actually learned how to write a script. She's not alone, and it's frustrating to see the number of otherwise highly-educated people who seem handicapped in certain tasks because corporate vendors like Microsoft, Mathworks, and (maybe to a lesser degree) Apple create a situation where they're unaware that there's a free, native paradigm where writing a little bit of code isn't a pain in the butt.

I myself didn't really consider how I could use code to speed up mundane tasks until I was forced to copy files over from an embedded Linux system over bash. The introduction from "open up a terminal, and type these commands in, which does these things" to "now just put those commands in a file called script.sh and type ./script.sh, and it will do the thing automatically" was eye-opening, at 22 years old. Looking back, it's the exact same problem that resulted in a company I used to work for doing 100s of GB of data processing in Excel, because writing Excel macros was more accessible than writing a bash script to append two .csv files.

I think a lot of kids would probably really be attracted to it as well. Linux gives you control over your computing environment, in a world where children rarely have any autonomy. I don't think every one of them needs to grow up to be a professional developer, but computer literacy seems like a hugely valuable skill.

[simonh]

I never understood why Microsoft never pushed VBScript harder, and didn’t include a basic IDE for it. After all every copy of Windows for decades has come with it and it’s very powerful. They do seem to be rectifying that with PowerShell though.

I think it’s unfair hitting the Mac on this front though. Automator is an incredibly easy to use desktop automation tool, and of course you’ve got Bash, Ruby and Python right there just the same as on Linux. They have also invested heavily in work flow automation tooling for iOS.

[qchris]

For many of the smaller, just-make-it-easier tasks, I definitely agree with you regarding the greater accessibility on Mac. It's certainly not in exactly the same bucket as Windows. I think the thing I had in my head was the lack of deeper accessibility in Apple products. On Linux, there's a really neat transition that can happen, where (imho, often by accident) you switch from just being a user of your computing environment to being its owner, which I think is a gateway to higher levels of technical engagement. Apple's approach seems sort of like a high-pass filter; you can only go so far in that environment before you start running into barriers. For the general population, I agree that it's probably not a high priority, but I think the trade-off in terms of gateway potential is worth acknowledging.

[awak3ning]

I am in strong agreement with this. I feel like it is selling kids short to not give them exposure to the Linux environment that underlies our modern world.

To me, it really comes down to empowerment of others. If you are not taught how the world works from first principles (in this case the world of computing), then you are forever relegated to live in someone else's world and live within their paradigm of thinking. In this case, the only justification is market capture for these Enterprises, which hasn't materially advanced society and societal issues as far as I can tell.

[kitsunesoba]

> I myself didn't really consider how I could use code to speed up mundane tasks until I was forced to copy files over from an embedded Linux system over bash. The introduction from "open up a terminal, and type these commands in, which does these things" to "now just put those commands in a file called script.sh and type ./script.sh, and it will do the thing automatically" was eye-opening, at 22 years old. Looking back, it's the exact same problem that resulted in a company I used to work for doing 100s of GB of data processing in Excel, because writing Excel macros was more accessible than writing a bash script to append two .csv files.

I mean, Linux specifically isn't really necessary for this. Back in the early-mid 00s, OS X got me into terminal usage and "real" programming via its free (as in beer), full-octane bundled dev tools and included Ruby installation.

In fact, at the point that I got into these things with OS X, I had already tinkered with a Linux variant (Yellow Dog) and had given up before getting too far because I didn't have the knowhow to make the OS as a whole work properly, and worse, the internet resources needed to fill this knowledge gap didn't make themselves obvious.

[qchris]

I can agree with this, which is why I added the "(to a lesser degree) Apple" caveat. I think, especially now, it seems they're moving in a less hacker-friendly direction in terms ability to progress from write-a-script to build-you-own-environment, but certainly is better than Windows. I've only heard of Yellow Dog, but for many modern distros, the transition from "flash this file to a USB drive using this program, plug in, and turn the computer on" seems like it should be a much more accessible option (even for people without an Apple budget) than it was even 10 years ago.

[kitsunesoba]

> I've only heard of Yellow Dog, but for many modern distros, the transition from "flash this file to a USB drive using this program, plug in, and turn the computer on" seems like it should be a much more accessible option (even for people without an Apple budget) than it was even 10 years ago.

Yeah, this was over 15 years ago. Yellow Dog was basically Red Hat PowerPC edition, so imagine Red Hat circa 2002.

Things have certainly gotten easier since then though, no question.

[jayflux]

> Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve.

I don’t understand this comment. What are you expecting Apple, Microsoft to do? They’re not charities, they make competing OS’s for profit. Why would anyone be waiting for them to bring Linux?

[awak3ning]

I am referring to the ability for consumers who purchase a hardware product with these Corporation's operating system installed to be able to dual boot, or replace the OS with a Linux distribution.

I believe this is both in line with free-market enterprise as well as core values such as individual liberty and property ownership. Anti-competitive and predatory practices should not be justified by people such as yourself under the guise of "competing for profit".

[mbirth]

We had this with Netbooks - remember those? You could choose between a barely running Windows XP or a well running Linux back then. People mostly bought the Windows version because that's what they knew and where the illegal copy of software X from their neighbour ran.

A similar thing happened with the city of Munich trying to convert their systems to Linux. The workers complained that OpenOffice/LibreOffice didn't work like their (most probably illegal) copies of Word and Excel at home and thus they couldn't work with it. When that didn't help, they complained about "missing software" and other strange reasons about why they absolutely couldn't work with Linux. So they rolled back to Windows and Office and started sending our tax money to Microsoft again. [1] (Also Microsoft promised to move their German HQ to Munich to bring wealth into town. But that's toooootally unrelated.)

At least, they're trying again... [2]

Point is, as long as 90% of all jobs and schools have you work in Windows, why should people start buying Linux PCs for themselves?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux [2] https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-i...

[stu2b50]

I think that is changing, though. G-Suite and the online versions of Office (Office365, I think?) are gaining a lot of traction in the business world. Live collaboration with other people is a huge benefit, and being a webapp saves the IT department many headaches.

Although that's less "Linux as a viable OS" and more "Google Chrome as a viable OS".

[da_big_ghey]

Lenovo and Dell both sell laptops with Linux installed. Dell ships XPS "developer edition" machines with Ubuntu and Lenovo offers Fedora on a bunch of machines.

However, I don't think selling such machines to the general public will happen soon, because there's not much of a market for it. Most users hate it when the interface of a single application changes; switching operating systems is probably a non-starter.

[yodon]

You can run and boot Linux on both macs[0] and pc's[1] and have been able to do so continuously for more than a decade.

[0]https://www.google.com/search?q=boot+mac+into+linux

[1]https://www.google.com/search?q=boot+pc+into+linux

[viraptor]

Not really on macs. Sure, the system boots, but due to lack of documentation, hardware support has to be reverse engineered. For wifi, the recent Intel MBP boards have broken firmware which just does not work with Linux - it's officially a wont-fix upstream since Apple doesn't care.

[saghm]

This might have gotten fixed recently, but last time I checked, there hasn't been a working Linux wifi driver for Macbooks starting with the first Touchbar model, which is a non-starter for most practical purposes.

[jason0597]

Not on these new ARM Macs

[interestica]

Well, exactly that. As soon as there is some sort of economic advantage, they do support alternatives. Economic advantage may not mean additional direct sales, but it may mean introducing a different customer base to their product or encouraging active development. I mean, MS has now released its second iteration of 'subsystem for linux' on Windows 10.

[shmerl]

A lot of times they aren't competing but making competing hard with lock-in (that's anti-competitive).

[IshKebab]

They don't need to do much - just document things, and make it possible to disable secure boot.

[stu2b50]

Apple does allow you to disable secure boot, yes even on the M1 Macs, and that's not even Microsoft's job.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

> and that's not even Microsoft's job.

Since they're the ones who required NT-on-ARM device vendors to disable user control of secure boot, yes it is their job.

[simonh]

I don’t think that’s how benefiting users works. Simply removing the options people have historically found suited them better doesn’t by itself create a better world.

There’s nothing whatsoever preventing the FOSS community coming up with better solutions, if they are capable of doing so, and taking away their main competitors doesn’t seem like a good way to incentivise competitive improvement. In fact we’ve been told repeatedly and often by FOSS advocates that open will inevitably beat closed anyway.

On the back end yes this has come to pass, but mainly because big corporations like AT&T, Intel and IBM have invested hundreds of millions, probably billions in Linux. Microsoft and Apple have also invested hundreds of millions, probably billions at this point, in their desktop platforms. The independent hacker community just can’t come close to that level of disciplined, organised, focused investment of effort.

Linux on ARM is another case in point. It takes a big company with huge resources like Google to get it done in a coherent, usable way.

We need to stop thinking about companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft as obstacles. They aren’t stopping the FOSS community from doing anything. They’re just bringing their own contributions to the table. Take Apple out of the picture and OSX, iOS and M1 Macs wouldn’t exist and FOSS would be exactly where it is now anyway.

[atomi]

There is something to be said here about greed and only appealing to the masses' basic instincts.

In a lot of cases it makes money and people prefer it, but that doesn't equate to being good or being good for society.

[simonh]

What matters is actually meeting people’s needs effectively and at high quality. That’s what’s good for society.

[atomi]

Sort of like the fossil fuel industry?

[cercatrova]

I mean, that's how the industrial revolution started and continues to this day, so yes, fossil fuels as well.

[dzhiurgis]

There's nothing 'high quality' about fossil fuels

[Waterluvian]

I cannot imagine punishing my children with Linux. I use it every day and love it but it's just such a rough edged by nerds for nerds OS.

If they want to get into programming and computer science then absolutely. But for the 98% of other walks of life I would give them a Mac so that the OS part of their day disappears into the background.

[da_big_ghey]

I did grow up on Linux. My dad put OpenSUSE on the family computer. I learned to break it and re-image the machine. I learned to work with a command-line interface. There was no power broker that stood in the way. But then, that's one man's experience, and most computers still ship with Windows, so take it for what it is.

[flatiron]

My daughters school gives her a chrome book so she is growing up using Linux. Her fire tablet also uses linux.

[jason0597]

That's not Linux Linux, that's Linux powered derivatives.

It's a bit like saying that people who use Android phones use Linux. Sure, the kernel may be Linux, but they don't use the desktop Linux that everyone refers to when they use the word "Linux" (bar a few exceptions)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy

[flatiron]

For the first comment it’s a Linux powered gnu/Linux derivative. It’s fully Linux. Just like android is fully Linux.

[ehutch79]

It's not linux until you have to debug your wifi cards driver.

[new_realist]

What advantages does Linux have for children over macOS? It’s UNIX, with the shell and all the OSS packages you could want. Very few children need to recompile the graphics stack, kernel, or drivers.

[boudin]

Very few Linux users too. The advantage is not locking them into a corporate environment that's getting more and more questionable and give them the oportunity to actually learn about computers.

[alphabettsy]

I don’t get the impression that most people care to learn about computers, they just want things to work. In this way I’m not sure it’s much different than most other things we use in life.

[shmerl]

You can use Wine to play a lot of games on Linux. Good luck doing that on macOS due to their refusal to support Vulkan and 32-bit. macOS doesn't offer any benefits in comparison with Linux, only disadvantages.

[ehutch79]

What is the advantage to the average person to be able to run 32 bit apps?

Most game engines are supporting the metal api, or use vulkanVK as an abstraction layer.

Have you considered implementing an office full of linux desktops? With a team of designers? Product Engineers? Salespeople on the road constantly? I'd imagine if macOS has no benefits at all, IT managers everywhere would be switching to linux desktops. Why do you think this hasn't happened? especially since linux has no disadvantage compared to macOS?

[SergeAx]

> children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC

You mean Mac/Windows, I think? Because PC surely can run Linux.