[cordellwren]

Consistent microtiming deviations or other forms of "expressive timing" are an essential element to "groove" or rhythmic "feel" in almost all modern popular styles of music. Things can get even crazier with world music styles like Samba, and let's not even get started with classical rubato.

And yet notating any of that information in every bar as, say, three-quarters to one-and-a-half hemidemisemiquavers early or late to each offbeat defeats the purpose of having a readable score.

The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance. That's not a bug, but a feature.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

>The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance.

This is precisely part of my point, or would be if you corrected it. The score contains, either implicitly or explicitly, global performance clues that will tell the performer what to do about timing (and if it doesn't that's because it is expected to come from a conductor or other similar source). It's a highly efficient mechanism precisely because it is a global property of the score (or perhaps locally scoped to sections). Much better than providing timing information for every note (as MIDI would do). The MIDI version is an inefficient means of information transfer.

BTW, things do not get even crazier with "world music styles like samba". Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures - the complexities come from layering a set of very simple patterns. Things do get "even crazier" with rhythmic traditions from Indian, Balinese and some parts of Africa, places where conventional western ways of describing things really don't do a good job at all.

[cordellwren]

I was remarking on your comment that timing variation is noise, as you're relegating far too much into that category due to your narrow view on what counts as musical intent. Rhythmic variations can be highly irregular and even seemingly random, yet follow an underlying logic and be stylistically essential to the performance, which means they would merit notation in some form.

And I'm sorry, but regarding samba, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I assume you're referring only to the surdo's backbeat, but the essence of the samba rhythm is the sixteenth-note groove played by the pandeiro, and that sound is pretty much as far from "extremely regular" as you can get while still maintaining a consistent pulse. I found the style relevant to bring up, as it's a commonly given basic example of a groove featuring microrhythmic variation.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

> Rhythmic variations can be highly irregular and even seemingly random, yet follow an underlying logic and be stylistically essential to the performance, which means they would merit notation in some form.

and yet ... in almost all the musical forms where this happens, it isn't notated.

I've played samba (surdo and tamborim parts, mostly). I have many friends who play Brasilian music in general. I think we have a problem with definitions, because the pandeiro part precisely fits my definition of "extremely regular timing". When playing samba, unlike various jazz influenced forms, you do not play ahead or behind the groove. The variation still uses a 16th note grid, albeit with lots of freedom of which parts of the grid to play or not play.

[cordellwren]

I see. I took "extremely regular" to mean conforming to an equidistant grid structure, while you seem to have been talking about the consistency in repetition that makes it a groove.

Regardless, the context of this discussion was determining whether MIDI data can hold "extra information" that the score does not, and I can't agree with most of your statements about that.

> technically, that would be a case of the MIDI data having noise in it, not extra information.

> and yet ... in almost all the musical forms where this happens, it isn't notated.

There's a term for this type of thinking, and it's called "notational centricity."

> "musicological methods tend to foreground those musical parameters which can be easily notated" such as pitch relationships or the relationship between words and music. On the other hand, historical musicology tends to "neglect or have difficulty with parameters which are not easily notated", such as tone colour or non-Western rhythms.

So any given parameter not being notated with ease or in detail doesn't prove anything about its role as an intentional, stylistic element of the music. That is, not being notated doesn't make a parameter any more likely to be "noise," because what does get notated is not a "core representation" of the musical text. In fact, the distinction between the two mostly comes down to historical coincidence or other non-musical factors.

MIDI or other more granulous performance capture standards have plenty of "extra information" to offer that is not noise, and I'd even say it's mostly the case that you'll see a robust SNR there.

[dragonwriter]

> Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures

Samba isn’t Afro-Cuban derived, whether in its rhythmic structures or otherwise.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Sorry, I wrote that down in a misleading way. Afro/Cuban might have been better, but what I really meant was "rhythmic structures influenced by African and/or Cuban musical culture", which samba definitely was. That's redundant in a way, because Cuban forms themselves are deeply indebted (if not directly playing) African forms, but my understanding is that there was a particular development/expansion of things in Cuba (much as in Brasil) that is perhaps best understood as a new branch of the tree. Samba doesn't owe anything in particular to Cuban traditions, but does draw on other African percussive structures.