[bottled_poe]

> Second, Agile doesn't ask people to estimate ("respond to change over follow a plan"). Management asks people to estimate.

I think it would be more accurate to say that those who pay for your time will ask you to estimate on the value which you expect to deliver in said time. That seems like a fair question to me.

[kthejoker2]

This is ipso facto, but like all creative work, they should prefer to pay you for your work product.

And I could write a book on it here (several others have!), but I think your comment points at the heart of this entire problem, namely the disconnect between the work being done and "those who pay you."

If they were truly invested in the value fulfillment cycle, they would never ask for an estimate, they would be clear about what hill they needed to be taken next in service of the product or customer (i.e. "here's where it hurts, doctor") and then help you agree on the smallest possible experiment to take the hill.

[andrekandre]

> and then help you agree on the smallest possible experiment to take the hill.

in most corporate environments, that wont cut it though... what management wants, and product owners are preassured to deliver, are large wins and overal product milestones, not incremental updates (outside or bug fixes)

> the disconnect between the work being done and "those who pay you."

yes, i think in many places, there is a fundamental tension between the "corporate thinking" and "agile thinking" and without real syncronization of methodologies and culture, any kind of "buy in from management" will usually lead to dysfunction and overall dissapointment