[switch11]

This is a difficult post to respond to

Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than social anxiety

If you have to 'lose sleep' after contacting someone on LinkedIn about your product, then you are just not suited to doing a startup

Secondly, there is nothing to feel bad about

Vast majority of people are not suited to starting a company or working in a small startup

Lots of good jobs in middle and large companies for you

Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule

I walked away from a Green Card to start my company

If I didn't succeed, I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER

You are upset that your girlfriend had to stay at home one year and you couldn't take her out for dinner????

Finally, this is a Catch 22 situation. Not sure why you are submitting this or writing about your experience if the ENTIRE reason you quit was you couldn't handle doing sales and marketing and putting yourself out there

I'm reluctant to respond because people who have social anxiety can sometimes take genuine feedback and mis-interpret it

What I'm trying to say is that the extent of the risk you took is not very high

And the reason that stuff didn't work out is your social anxiety

So just make sure you don't take the wrong feedback from what life is telling you

[Waterluvian]

When I was 13 I had a paper route. It was almost all modern except three or four households that still used the collection model. The paper company would take their subscriptions out of my pay and send me to collect and keep it and any tips. I decided it was easier to just take the pay cut than knock on those doors.

The whole concept still makes me intensely anxious and I would sooner quit a job than begin dealing with customers directly.

But I'm hella good at my job and I'm quite comfortable not being that kind of person. As you said it's not for everyone.

[DoofusOfDeath]

Glad to know I'm not the only one. I had to give up my paper route (mid 1980s) because I was too shy to collect. I could get up at 5:30 a.m. every day and spend an hour biking hard to deliver the papers rain or shine, but I collections freaked me out, even though all my customers were nice people.

The crazy thing is that it never occurred to me to discuss this with my parents, nor (AFAIK) did they ever consider having me see a counselor. I just kept on carrying a private shame about my cowardice.

I really hope that parents are better these days about noticing when kids are privately suffering with various neurological / psychological issues, and that more resources are available for helping.

[Waterluvian]

My anxieties have made me super sensitive to those of my kids. I am careful not to project onto them. I'm also always paying close attention to discover any moments of "you just need someone to notice you're struggling."

[DoofusOfDeath]

Same. Sorry you're in the same boat, but it's nice to hear that it's not just me :/

[neckardt]

What is the collection model?

[inetsee]

The collection model is that the person delivering the newspapers has to knock on doors and ask the subscribers to pay for the subscription. This is in contrast to the subscription model where the subscribers pay the newspaper publisher, which pays the person delivering the newspapers.

[outworlder]

> Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule

Is it ? So is the lack of empathy.

> I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER

No you wouldn't have. You would have temporarily forfeited the ability to _live_ at _one_ rich country.

> So just make sure you don't take the wrong feedback from what life is telling you

What IS the correct feedback? Certainly not yours.

[rsj_hn]

I think if you trying trying to sniff out a shortage of generosity, you might find enough in your own reply as well as in the parent.

The way I read the reply is that almost all small businesses fail, almost all startups fail. There is absolutely nothing unique to "indy hacking" in the original post that doesn't apply in general to the small business/independent contractor world, and if you spend any time talking to one of these people, they will have plenty of similar stories. Thus the "well, what did you expect" tone of some of the replies that you seem to take offense to.

The best course of action for low risk tolerance people who don't want to do everything themselves is to find a big company to work for with stable employment that is focused on their core passion, rather than forcing them to deal with customer support, billing, tax issues, HR issues, VISA issues, facilities maintenance, infrastructure, sales, working capital management, and all the other stuff you have to handle on your own if you are running a 1 man shop (or even a small business).

All of the above should be absolutely obvious -- why do you think these big companies have tens of thousands of employees and have dozens of non-developer full time staff for every developer? If you want to do everything yourself, you will need to take on the responsibilities of all these other people.

None of this will ever change, either.

Btw, this was the topic of a nice essay by Joel Spolsky called "The Developer Abstraction Layer". The original author of the post basically lived out the parable in Joel's story. You might want to take a look:

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/04/11/the-development-ab...

Interestingly enough, the theme of Joel's story is that developers take this abstraction layer for granted, and thus end up being shocked when it turns out really hard for the indy developer, who is missing this layer, to do everything for themselves.

[croes]

Ever thought that his anxieties are the result of his failing business and not how he started? And life is telling nothing. There is no guaranteed way of success. You can have all the abilities and knowledge you need and still fail miserably. Luck is a large part of every success story. Nobody has really unique capabilities.

[bawolff]

Not to be harsh, but that seems even worse. If you can't handle failures and set backs, you even more so should not be in the start up business because those things are definitely going to happen, a lot, if you are running any sort of business.

Its the same as if you are terrified of heights, being a professional mountain climber is a very bad plan. You either need to get over it somehow quickly or choose a different career.

And there is nothing wrong with that. We all have unique strengths and weaknesses. Success comes from following our strengths not trying to plow through our weaknesses.

[cortesoft]

I am confused by this sort of comment pointing out that he was not cut out for the life of an independent developer... well, yeah, that is what his essay is saying - that he is not cut out to be an independent developer. He thought he was, did it for a year, and realized he was not cut out for it.

I don't understand this comment and the other similar ones acting like they are somehow adding insight... yes, he couldn't make it as an independent developer, that is literally the point of the essay.

Repeating the reasons he lays out in the essay and saying "yeah, you won't succeed as an independent developer" seems a little like hearing someone at Alcoholics Anonymous tell their story and then responding, "Yeah, it sounds like you can't have a healthy relationship with alcohol"

[bawolff]

I'm responding to what the parent wrote not the original article.

[thothamon]

To the extent he is speaking only for himself and not making any kind of larger point, I'm not sure why it's on the front page of Hacker News.

To the extent he's making a point such as "I gained nothing from this experience" or that he's asking for advice or thoughts, I think some of the thoughts -- such as working toward your strengths rather than through your weaknesses -- are interesting.

[xupybd]

I'm terrified of heights. I used to install antennas and satellite dishes. It was great I had to get over my fear. I got to the point where I enjoyed getting up on a two story roof and walking around.

Fast forward 15 years of not doing it and I'm terrified to go up on a roof.

My point is you may have an inclination to be afraid of something but don't let that limit you. You probably can face your fears and overcome.

[croes]

Who says he can't handle failure? There is between processing a situation afterwards and be activly in it. And it seems to be his first time. If he tries a second time, it could be a different outcome.

[hn_throwaway_99]

That is certainly not how it came through in his post. I thought he made it pretty clear he had terrible anxiety promoting his ideas and products.

[camphero]

> Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than social anxiety

And your issue doesn’t seem to be anything other than inability to empathize with someone that is legitimately venting how freelancing can be a nearly impossible hurdle for some. Anxiety is not the same experience for all.

[Jare]

> the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule

This is NOT a competition.

[tsomctl]

Speaking as someone that used to have a major problem with depression and anxiety, an important thing part of recovery is realizing that the shit you're worrying about isn't that important. Having other people tell me that the thing I'm worrying about isn't worth the anxiety was important.

[Jare]

But that's completely different from having someone tell your your problem is minuscule compared to theirs. I mean, technically any possible angle might possibly work for someone somewhere sometime, but this does not feel to me like the right angle to use.

[OJFord]

> Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule

> I walked away from a Green Card to start my company

> If I didn't succeed, I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER

What? I'm British; before HN I'd never heard of a 'green card'. Maybe it's a policy that the USA won't let you in if you walk away from one once; maybe Canada cares about that too.

But I assure you, the majority of the 'developed world' (a) doesn't give a shit about; and (b) isn't equipped to take into consideration, American 'green cards'.

[torben-friis]

I'm a spaniard, and while I agree that green cards are obviously unknown here, I would tell you to get a closer look at the requirements for someone from the third world to come work to your country - they EU is awesome, but out of that it's all atrocious.

I had a girlfriend that moved here from the US of all places, and almost 5 years of avoiding pitfalls later she still can't be sure she'll be allowed to stay...imagine the chances of someone from, say, somalia making the jump.

[OJFord]

I'm not claiming it's easy, just that having turned down an offer from the USA doesn't matter.

[simonebrunozzi]

I don't think he meant that the non-US developed world doesn't count.

[jariel]

It doesn't matter what 'the developed world thinks'.

For someone who wanted access to a Green Card, to have to give it up is fairly substantial.

And FYI anyone in the developed world, were they to know what a 'Green Card' actually was, would find it probably invaluable. The optionality that comes along with being able to move freely and work in the US is a big deal even if it's not apparent at the start of one's career.

[quietbritishjim]

The parent comment was responding to the grandparent comment's apparent claim that a green card is equivalent to the whole developed world. There's no dispute that a green card is valuable.

A more useful correction to the parent comment: GP probably just meant that the green card was what currently gave them access to the whole of the developed world, not that it's the only way to access some of the countries in it.

[OJFord]

A US green card doesn't give you 'access to the whole of the developed world' though, it's meaningless outside of America.

France's customs for example don't care whether you have a US green card or not, it makes no difference in whether or for you're allowed to stay in France.

[alfonsodev]

I think you are confused, this was posted on Indie Hackers under the self care section, not to hacker news directly.

Besides that, there is no point to compare risks and suffering, both are relative and subjective experiences.

And lastly, social anxiety could be (or not) by it self a major problem, bigger than losing a Green Card, your comment sounds too condescending and not really useful.

[marzell]

I disagree... In the article, the writer says, "If I share an article on Reddit I feel anxious for a week"..

Clearly he was in the wrong line of work. I'm not saying it wasn't worth sharing in self-care, but I don't feel we should be overly sympathetic when the bottom line is that the guy seems to have made a series of predictably bad moves. It sounds like he was hoping to make short term sacrifices for some sort of startup dream outcome, but clearly that only happens a small amount of the time. He's probably on r/entrepreneur right now dreaming about drop shipping.

[aprdm]

Thanks for saying this ! It was akin to responding to someone suffering from something that people in Africa have it worse and they shouldn’t be complaining ...

[blaisio]

Are you seriously shaming them because you think they have social anxiety and you don't think they took a big enough risk?

[pizza234]

While the tone may be a bit condescending, what's the shaming? The social anxiety diagnosis seems very realistic to me, and there's no shame in not being suited for starting a company.

I am familiar with startup company working, but I'm positively not suited to starting (or being a CEO of) a company, and I don't see any shame in it. To each their own.

[falcolas]

> there's no shame in not being suited for starting a company.

There is around here (on Hacker News). If you don't run a company, the entrepreneurs around here don't believe you deserve anything more than a "competitive" salary and a job.

[silveroriole]

Err, what else would you ‘deserve’? A salary and job is indeed what employees get... (I don’t run a company btw)

[lucb1e]

> I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER

What's wrong with being a programmer in a different country? Maybe I don't understand but as someone who writes code and doesn't have a "green card" (afaict that's some USA immigration thing) I really don't see the problem there. Not doing anything fun for a year seems like a much bigger sentence than not being allowed to stay in a place that you apparently didn't come from to begin with. There are a lot of other rich countries in the world if that's what you're looking for? I heard some of them even score higher on happiness indices.

I do agree with you that OP seems to have social anxiety. Reading that they have a lot of trouble posting things online, that's not normal and definitely doesn't seem like a good recipe for someone who wants to make a living with a developer job in this digital world. But I don't agree that because you went through self-proclaimed bigger risks, this person isn't rightfully frustrated after not managing to make money from self-employment.

[maire]

I was painfully shy and started my own business. There is a lot of value in the startup experience even if he does not stay in the startup world.

How did I do it? I had small goals each day and each week and focused on those goals rather than the outcome. It is the outcome that creates angst for the introverted.

I had my own business for 3 years. The first year was painful the 2nd 2 years were productive.

When I went back to traditional employment I had a confidence that I would not have had if I stayed on a traditional business path.

[ta1234567890]

On a related note, social anxiety can be awefully crippling, I personally struggled with it for decades. The main tool that helped me overcome it was the book The Charisma Myth. Can't recommend it enough, it literally changed my life. It does take some work and dedication though.

[macromaniac]

Thanks for the recommendation, Ill give it a shot. It feels good to know other people have beaten it. Social anxiety has prevented me from working with others in any form (feedback, delegation, marketing).

I remember first day of speech in college when it was my turn to speak. I got up, walked out the door, and dropped the class.

It was hard to even work up the courage to post this comment. But i did. Baby steps.

[ta1234567890]

> But i did. Baby steps.

That's the spirit!

And it will definitely be baby steps at a time, you just need to keep going.

The Charisma Myth book has plenty of interesting research and content, but by far the most important things are the exercises. At a basic level they are about being very aware of your internal state and then learning how to change it. When I first started going through the exercises, it kinda felt like I was learning a new language, and it opened a whole new world of possibilities.

Btw, if you just want to test it out before buying the book, check this summary[0] out and follow the "Three quick tips to boost charisma" mentioned in the second bullet of chapter 1.

0: https://github.com/mgp/book-notes/blob/master/the-charisma-m...

[tarsinge]

I have social anxiety and started a company. Social anxiety is not the root cause. Sales and marketing (entrepreneurship) is indeed at the hearth of a startup, but the difference is I find these activities fun and rewarding, and a huge opportunity to learn and grow as a person.

So much to learn like writing, doing presentations and conducting a sale (B2B), public speaking, crafting a brand, hiring, designing processes, organizing and managing teams, company structure and culture...

I love to code, but it’s a small part. The larger “real life build your company strategy game” is more interesting for me.

[Aeolun]

Or, you know, the stuff didn’t work out for reasons other than their social anxiety. While it undoubtedly doesn’t help, the bigger factor might be the actual products they were trying to produce/sell.

[AussieWog93]

>Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than social anxiety

I guarantee you it's more than that. If you create a product that actually solves people's problems, people will make the effort to reach out to you. I know this from experience - I have poor social skills but a good business sense, and would regularly make sales even when I was overwhelmed and avoiding contact with the outside world for weeks at a time.

[_aleph2c_]

The thing that you can't lose is that spiritual drive that is the engine of your venture. With out it, all is lost, even your mental health. It's hard to predict how life will be when your gamble starts coming up short. It's hard to keep focus when your dealing with your girlfriend's anxiety, or when your running out of money without any backup plan. I have felt the author's pain, but from the pain comes a set of lessons you can't understand from reading a book. I hope that after he picks up his pieces he eventually executes again with a new game plan: to manage his downside, to have customer's chomping at the bit, to find proper financial backing, to establish a team of fellow believers, to sell into a well established network through a partner, or whatever lessons he has learned.

[falcolas]

> Secondly, there is nothing to feel bad about - Vast majority of people are not suited to starting a company or working in a small startup

There is around here on HN. Entrepreneurs here view you as, at best, an interchangeable cog who deserves nothing above a job and perhaps a bonus if you help a company succeed.

If you're a really good, perhaps you'll even get to keep your job when the founder walks away with "Fuck You" money.

Is it any surprise someone who wants to succeed feels like they must to become a founder to leave the daily job behind?

[xupybd]

I'm not sure the authors anxieties are cause or effect in this case.

It sounds like they poured their soul into something and now are dealing with the fall out of it failing.

I think this post is nothing more than an emotional release. A cathartic venting of the disappointment of failure.

[gpsx]

I think it is unfair to say he is not cut out for a startup. If he has trouble doing some of those things, he needs help from someone who is good at those. People in a startup have to wear a lot of hats, but they don't have to wear every hat.