[dinglefairy]

you're quite right about this. although i would say that we do actually store memories in our bodies. this is where extended abuse and trauma really take their toll on people. think about shell shock in veterans. they train and train for combat. then they see combat and the trauma then embeds itself in the 'muscle memory' of training. then something random happens but triggers the muscle memory and the memories come flooding back.

same for say, abused wives. say they get out of their situation and meet a nice person. then one day that person gets angry that the dog shat in their best shoes and they have a fit which reminds her of her previous relationship. the memories come flooding back.

depression is the same. for me it's been a recurring failure of academic and meritorious achievements. in our society not achieving these things is like a frying pan in the face when you want to do something that requires experience say. sure, I've learned to duck, but everytime life swings a frying pan at my face [being fired, not meeting qualifications, being considered unreliable/unintelligent etc] all those old memories come back. so you end up dodging one frying pan and get hit by another, as if there were some kind of compound interest frying pan abyss. my metaphor for the muscle memory of depression. eventually you just take the hits cause what's the use in trying to dodge the pan?

i will say this though; after being on disability for a decade there is something bitter sweet about the rising levels of depression brought on by covid. while i don't wish depression on anybody whatsoever, and hope one day we'll find some perfect somatic solution to it, misery really does love company.

I'm not sure how to get the depression out of the muscle memory, but i do know we need to do a better job of getting people away from their trauma.

[proverbialbunny]

>I'm not sure how to get the depression out of the muscle memory, but i do know we need to do a better job of getting people away from their trauma.

I know how, but it's a deep topic that a single comment on an online forum can barely begin to do justice.

First, I worry of a potential negative side effect of believing in muscle memory, regardless if it is or is not true. The concern is it could lead to the belief of static memory. Memory is impermanent and easy to change; you're not suck with it. So much so, there is a police interrogation technique that does just this to get innocent people thrown in prison. (I'm not kidding.)

How it works is they show a bunch of faces, one with the person they want to be found guilty to the victim. The victim says no to all of them or, "I don't know.." and then later the police come in with a new lineup of photos. All of the photos are different expect the person they want to be found guilty. Usually a second time is enough. The victim will recognize the person shown twice and announce, "It's them. They did it!" If not, they'll keep doing this until that is the eventual consequence. It usually only takes a few times.

One particular interesting study on stripping out memories (or muscle memory if you prefer) is how MDMA therapy works on PTSD. PTSD is a condition similar to anxiety, but different, in which they may have reoccurring nightmares of a horrific event, or if something reminds them of that event irl they may have a traumatic flashback. Clearly their old memories are causing them great distress. So how does this therapy work? Well, MDMA has a side effect of not being able to feel fight or flight on it, and it turns out our memory is read once, write many. This means the second we remember something, it gets erased from our long term memory. Our mind recalls the memory (processes it) and while processing it, it writes a new memory back to long term memory with its contents. On MDMA the fight or flight in the memories can not be processed, so what gets written back is a memory without the trauma attached to it.

Read once, write many has numerous side effects. For example, the very act of recalling a memory over and over again changes it. You can do this experiment on yourself by writing down a story, then recalling it in your memory by saying it out loud like you're telling someone that story. Each time you say it the memory will be modified. Keep going and after around 10 times some details should be obviously wrong. You can then compare this version to the old one to see yourself. It's a solo version of telephone game.

So you can alter your memories, you may be able to even find a way to strip the depression out when being hit over the face (Which you can.), but wait there's more.

How one responds to the present moment is a habit. Every response you will ever give is a habit, even to a new and unexpected situation. It's pretty entertaining to observe the variation of habits people have between cultures. In the US if something unexpected happens like on a hidden game show Americans might be like, "Whaaaaatt??" or might punch someone who startles them, or just in general Americans are very reactive. In the UK when something unexpected happens on a hidden game show they tend to freeze. Sometimes they look around, but they usually pause and wait. It's quite a different response.

Once we realize our responses to the present moment are habits, it's as simple (and as difficult) as changing those habits to new habits that are better suited. This can be as extreme as teaching someone with borderline personality disorder how to not freak out and start yelling when they fall in love with someone, to something more subtle like in your situation not responding with being depressed when life gives you a shitty day.

To change ones habits, they have to be aware of the causality. That is they have to see the present moment before their response and then have a planned alternative response. You always have to have an alternative response, as purely cutting out a habit is difficult, but replacing a habit is much easier. Once the cause (the present moment event) is caught before the response happens, a new habit can be put in. It is nearly instantaneous and a massive amount of mindfulness is needed. One way to cultivate this level of mindfulness is by meditating, which has the side effect of increasing mindfulness. This teaching of how to change ones habits to not have negative responses is a key ingredient to removing dukkah or psychological stress, but it is commonly translated to the word suffering. This is a Buddhist teaching (not the religion) which modern day psychology has picked up on. Enlightenment in Buddhism is the end of dukkah, so the end of all negative psychological responses to things. As you can see I can and am giving you a deep dive into this technique anyone can do with a bit of practice showing it's quite real. Enlightenment does not have to be mysterious. It can be grounded in science.

[kordlessagain]

I would note that not everyone has visual memories or ability to manifest imagery or sound, in mind. If you find yourself wondering what Bunny is talking about here, they are discussing what are called "aggregates".

Aggregates are formations of thoughts, which typically manifest as visual elements, such as "seeing" things "in mind". Not necessarily "visualizing", but more like "visual historic recall" or "predictive recall of future events".

Unfortunately (perhaps), I don't do this thing with images or sound. But I am aware others do. I do it with thoughts and feelings.

Although imagery is typical, audio aggregates, feeling aggregates, smell aggregates and more are also possible. Thinking mind aggregates are the worst because they spawn other aggregates! :) Like other types of aggregates (gravel for example) there is usually a good mix of emotion, images, sounds and other sense bases manifesting, in mind.

What Buddha taught was that, in order to "see" these things for what they are, one must sit and focus on "noting" the events/aggregates as they pass our awareness filters. This would give a sense of "causality" to the mediator. By noting these aggregates, over time and with attention, they (the aggregates) will eventually liberate themselves from the mind.

Try sitting until you think of something and then ask yourself internally and very clearly and precisely "Who is it that cares about this?" This is a good technique for bringing thinking mind to a halt for a moment, at least in most.

Anything we do that is repetitive in nature, which does not improve us, is a type of "ill being". Following a recommended path of "well being" will allow us to escape the day to day suffering (assault by aggregates) most experience.