[thaumaturgy]

It's kind of a bummer that you included the Foxconn example, considering that there have been several articles pointing out that Foxconn is huge and, statistically speaking, they have a lower suicide rate than the national average. In other words, working at Foxconn makes you less likely to commit suicide!

That example kind of casts doubt on the others, which I hadn't heard of before (but wouldn't be surprised by, either).

[TomOfTTB]

On the other claims are you capable of using Google? If you had the time to post this you should have the time to verify the data for your own piece of mind.

As far as Foxconn the company is huge but 30 suicide attempts in 3 weeks is not normal (http://gizmodo.com/#!5540045/foxconn-suicide-cluster-claims-...). China only has a .02% suicide rate and most are in the rural areas (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-09/11/content_609571...). That's 1 (Edit: I meant 1,000 here) in every 5 million people killing themselves. Foxconn has 950,000 employees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn) and 30 suicide attempts in 3 weeks!

[seabee]

Your facts don't support your assertions.

Population of China (2007): 1,321,851,888 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004391.html)

Suicide rate determined in 2007: "more than 287,000 people end their own lives every year" (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-09/11/content_609571...)

Suicide rate per 100,000 per year: 21.7

Statistically expected suicides at Foxconn per year: 206

Actual suicides in 2010: 14 (http://topics.scmp.com/news/china-news-watch/article/Struggl...) with at least 30 attempts (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/malcolmmoore/100039883/wha...) (the articles contradict themselves in the number of attempts)

You are assuming the suicide cluster is a continuing trend rather than a short-term incident. Statistics does not work that way, things are not neat and orderly and you can't extrapolate like that. Besides, suicide clusters are a known phenomenon (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7205141.stm).

Also bear in mind that other sources place China's suicide rate much lower by a factor of as much as 4 (but Foxconn's suicide rate would still be lower than the average).

Is it something to be concerned about? Of course. But it's not at the dark-forces-at-work stage. All you are witnessing is how sausages (or cheap Chinese-manufactured goods) are made; witnessing it is uncomfortable but how often does it turn someone vegetarian?

[Retric]

That's a reasonable first approximation.

However, I would add that attempts are a poor indicator because there is a wide range of methods with poor success rates. EX: An increasing in attempts can relate to people choosing low success rate methods and failing.

Also younger people are far more likely to commit suicide than the elderly or vary young. However, generally employed people tend to have lower suicide rates. There is also a significant gender bias in suicide attempts and different bias in rates of suicide. Men are more likely to die on their first attempt in large part due to their chosen methods etc.

Also, suicides rates tend to cluster more than expected, both in the short and long term.

[ceejayoz]

> On the other claims are you capable of using Google?

> China only has a .02% suicide rate and most are in the rural areas (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-09/11/content_609571...). That's 1 in every 5 million people killing themselves.

While you're suggesting people use Google, you should acquaint yourself with the calculator function. That's 1,000 in every 5 million people killing themselves. http://www.google.com/search?q=0.02%25+*+5000000

10 suicide attempts a week in a company the size of San Jose, California isn't particularly high.

[TomOfTTB]

Sorry I meant 1,000 there. But my typo doesn't invalidate the point. The total suicide rate includes the elderly, the painfully poor, and so on. Foxconn workers by virtue of having a job at all are in the higher ranks of society. They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate.

(Also note instead of improving the conditions they put out Suicide nets which is bound to bring their numbers down)

[thaumaturgy]

> They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate.

Why not?

I'm not familiar with Chinese culture -- can you explain why working at a factory should drop a person's odds of suicide to an arbitrary number less than 50% of the national average?

[TomOfTTB]

Because having a job at Foxconn is the equivalent of being rich there. You have air conditioning and in door plumbing. Foxconn workers make 2,000 renminbi (after Foxconn doubled their salary to stop the suicides). That's 3 times what a normal person with a job in makes in China.

This would be like a cluster of Facebook or Google employees committing suicide in the U.S.

[thaumaturgy]

To be fair to your argument, everything I've read so far about working conditions at Foxconn would be considered close to slave labor in the U.S. ... so yes, there certainly is room for improvement there, and yes, Apple as a major customer could have some influence over the working conditions there if they wanted.

However, it's also worth considering that good mental health isn't likely to lead to suicide even in difficult working conditions; that depression, the number one cause of suicide [1], is a mental health problem whose treatment might or might not be within the realm of a company's ability to handle; and that even Disneyland in Paris has trouble with employee suicides. [2] Although, again, to be fair to you, that article leads right away by saying that the employees there have been complaining about poor working conditions.

Finally, there are cultural considerations. What are considered terrible work conditions by American standards might not be so horrible when viewed by Chinese standards, just as American work ethics are seen as 20th century by other countries.

[1]: http://www.suicide.org/depression-and-suicide.html

[2]: http://thedisneyblog.com/2011/02/04/fourth-disneyland-paris-...

[glhaynes]

How strongly does being rich tend to correlate with a reduced suicide rate?

[ceejayoz]

So your contention is that they're killing themselves because they're rich and comfortable?

[thaumaturgy]

> On the other claims are you capable of using Google?

Nope. Is that a new startup? YCS11?