[Proziam]

I'm conservative. I'm active on social media. I don't see what you're talking about at all. My feed is constantly being inundated with "We need to make lists of every trump supporter" and similar, but never do I see the supposed ultra-widespread nazi/alt-right hate.

Trump, for all his flaws, has disavowed white supremacy so many times it hurts to watch and even the most famous "very fine people" quote was [0] taken out of context (if you can call that anything but an outright lie, frankly).

The membership of racist organizations like the KKK is small, vanishingly small. It's not even .1% of Trumps base. [1] And, more importantly, it's shrinking. It has been for a very long time.

[1]Despite their diminishing numbers, there are still approximately 3,000 Klan members nationwide, as well an additional but unknown number of associates and supporters. Even with relatively small numbers, groups like the North Carolinabased Loyal White Knights (LWK), perhaps the most active Klan group in the United States today, have a fairly expansive geographical reach. In 2015, with just 150-200 members, they were able to draw attention to themselves in 15 different states (mostly in the south and east), typically through fliering, which requires only a single participant.

[2][3] It is a matter of public record that Biden supported segregationists, voted against integration-supporting policies like bussing (which Kamala Harris roasted him for repeatedly), and pushed legislation that disproportionately harmed black folks.

Ultimately, there's plenty of good reasons to dislike Trump that are completely and unarguably valid. Covid, John Bolton, numerous conflicts of interest (like using personal assets for the military and government functions) are a small piece of that. But calling Trump racist or a nazi is just taking the bait that his political opponents have set out.

In my personal opinion, Biden is the worse choice for president purely on the basis of his likelihood of supporting additional war efforts (whereas Trump is the first president in 40 years not to start a new war - AND has helped bring about a series of peace treaties in the middle east.)

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfzJATDmXs

[1] https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/state-of-the...

[2] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-...

[3] https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/920385802/biden-vows-to-ease-...

[disgruntledphd2]

I'm totally with you on Trump not starting any wars (which is a low bar for a US president, but one which is rarely hit).

However, his treatment of Israel and Saudi Arabia were perhaps 100 times worse than any previous president.

He moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, which was incredibly inflammatory to both the Palestinians and the wider world, and will make it very, very difficult for any peace deal to be signed there (as the Palestinians want it as their capital).

His support of Saudi Arabia, regardless of their extra-judicial killings was another low point in the US relations in the middle east.

The other "peace" deals he signed were more caving to particular factions rather than bringing them together.

[Proziam]

Each deal can be criticized and certainly worth exploration, but the overall trend is, at least in my opinion, quite clear. Comparing Trump's record on international conflict to any president in my lifetime makes him look like a saint. And all of the criticisms levied at him (in my opinion) pale in comparison to stopping the literal mass-murder in the middle east. If the US reverses course on vying for peace, and instead picks up the big stick approach, it will make it clear what the policy of established politicians really is. If that happens I hope America has the conscience to remove them all.

> Although Trump has talked of withdrawing completely from Iraq, Pentagon officials have cautioned that a U.S. troop presence remains necessary to guard against an IS resurgence and to help the Iraqi government limit the political and military influence of Iran, which supports militias operating inside Iraq. [1]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-54554286

[1] https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/09/09/...

[tsimionescu]

His actions in the middle east have been far from universally positive (not that any American president in 50 years has done any good there).

He has supported Saudi Arabia with weapons to help their slaughter in Yemen.

He has reneged on the Iran nuclear deal, proving for the second and probably last time that making deals with the USA is a fools errand (it's the second time the US has reneged on a deal with Iran; I doubt there will be a third).

He has publicly assassinated a high dignitary of Iran, during an official visit to a different country, an act of war by any measure.

He has moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, an extremely inflammatory decision that further stops any remaining chance that the USA can ever be seen as a negotiator in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Overall, while maybe not as bad as Bush and Obama in direct deaths, his legacy has shut down any hope of peace in the region with America's involvement. So I wouldn't rank him too highly on this area.

Let's also not forget that he has unilaterally cancelled the USA's nuclear disarmament deal with Russia, another extremely anti-peace move, one that will have far-reaching consequences.

The only truly decent external policy that he has shown is his handling of the North Korea crisis - that was a true diplomatic success by any measure, which I gladly admit.

And of course, we shouldn't forget that all of his other horrible decisions pale in the face of his anti-climate moves, which have likely helped push the world over the brink.

[Proziam]

I don't disagree with a single thing you've said. That said, when comparing presidents you have to compare them to each other, or to candidates that might replace them.

In that light the bar is set so appallingly low that even Trump managed to get across it. Presidential candidates in the US are almost universally pro-war and pro-military escalation, even while pretending otherwise.

[hackyhacky]

It's great for you that your Twitter feed has managed to avoid the most depraved, violent side of the right. I'll attribute that to the relatively rarefied air of Twitter broadly. Fact is, the Internet skews left; Twitter skews left of that; and the Twitter feed of an educated Hacker News commentator (which I presume you are) skews even lefter. So you might not be getting an accurate reading of the temperature of the country.

Go visit r/The_donald (or wherever they find themselves these days), 4Chan, or just go to any small town in the South. Violent racism is a badge proudly worn.

[rattray]

Can you provide some example links? Maybe in a gist or something.

[mint2]

I think you’re underestimating the power of filter bubbles. I’m very left, mostly live in SF and LA, and browse r politics. I’ve never seen what you’re talking about. R politics has an strong point of view but if anything is posted along those lines it gets downvoted to oblivion.

I think you need to reassess how your feeds are being filtered because they appear to have zeroed in on ultra extreme pockets. Either your clicks or the algorithms have put your feeds in a skewed place. It sounds like you’re being shown the right wing caricature of the left. Of course that makes them look insane.

[Proziam]

I follow primarily esports players, a handful of folks like Patio11 and Paul Graham, some constitutional conservatives, a handful of John Locke style liberals, a few gun people (Colion Noir, and others) and that's it.

Despite this, I am rarely shown anything conservative on Twitter. If the algo gods have decided I'm extreme left, then they are broken beyond repair. It seems more likely to me that Twitter simply de-prioritizes conservative media.

Meanwhile, stuff like this is pretty mainstream.

WAPO opinion writer and MSNBC contributor - https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1324792225260253184

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1324807776510595078

The Trump Accountability Project (There are two, the original has now distanced themselves from this one) - https://www.trumpaccountability.net/

MSNBC Host Chris Hayes - Tweet deleted, found this instead https://twitter.com/VoteMarsha/status/1325477249697673217

[rattray]

Thank you for posting this, it was a very helpful perspective for me to hear.

One thing I am curious about – what sorts of people do you see posting things like "We need to make lists of every trump supporter"?

[Proziam]

I've seen a bunch, just a few quick ones I've noticed most recently.

WAPO opinion writer and MSNBC contributor - https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1324792225260253184

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1324807776510595078

The Trump Accountability Project (There are two, the original has now distanced themselves from this one) - https://www.trumpaccountability.net/

MSNBC Host Chris Hayes - Tweet deleted, found this instead https://twitter.com/VoteMarsha/status/1325477249697673217

Rhetoric that I've seen is essentially that "anyone who voted for, donated to, or promoted Trump's policies should be on a list which should be used to remove them from 'polite' society."

Use of the words polite society has popped up quite a few times as well. I'm sure you can find substantially more by googling around.

[rattray]

Thanks, that does sound upsetting.

What I meant to ask, though, was whether you saw liberal or conservative folks sharing these?

Personally I'd only seen them shared in conservative circles... Wondering if it's more an example of "one side taking an extreme comment and applying it to everyone on the other side" (like many on the left have done with racism etc) or an actual movement of mccarthyism.

[Proziam]

I've seen this get traction in both circles. The left leaning people I know are what I would describe as "sane" but they are still willing to like/retweet this message.

Of course the conservative leaning people are responding more along the lines of "And you called US fascists?!"

I think having mainstream media writers and hosts, as well as an elected representative promote this message is enough to suggest that it's spread too far already. Hopefully this sort of rhetoric dies down and the legal claims about the election are resolved through fair evidence-based examination. If not, I think we might be headed towards yet more unrest.

[rattray]

Thanks! It's so hard to find out what the world looks like from other people's digital/social bubbles...

I totally agree - it's really, really important that conservatives don't feel attacked (let alone hunted) and that concerns about election integrity are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.

Here's hoping...