[jariel]

" maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US. "

It seems you had a bad experience with what you felt were 'right wing' ideals but probably had little to do with that, as it would be a pretty intellectually shallow description of any kind of Conservatism (although understandable if one were to equate 'Trump' with 'Conservative' and I don't think many people would in the intellectual sense) and also oddly experientially 'upside down'.

Most 'young people' are progressive, people tend to get more conservative as they get older.

Cynically, one could say it's due to age and myopia, but more likely it has to do with responsibility, perspective, maturity and frankly living through decades and seeing how the world adapts.

Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.

Barack Obama, for example, is a 'Progressive Conservative', and he is in many ways in his own personal life a model 'cultural conservative': religious, church going, mild mannered, straight forward marriage, traditional formal education. He speaks formally and graciously, and is literally a living embodiment of many cultural historical artefacts. He didn't serve in the military but he very well could have, it's totally within his character.

He's not at all that far away from Mitt Romney for example.

Donald Trump is not a 'Conservative' or even 'right wing' really, he's just a jerk who found a 'following' in appealing to the worst qualities of 'bad right wing tropes'.

"In 1999, Trump described himself as "very pro-choice" and said "I believe in choice." (Wikipedia)

Donald Trump was a tough-guy New York 'kind of Democrat' most of his life. He always supported gay marriage. The Clintons were literally at his wedding to Melania.

He's a serial scammer, effectively a polygamist who marries woman purely on the basis of their attractiveness and then dumps them later, cavorts with prostitutes, lies, cheats, steals.

He changes his political views to suit the day, because they don't matter to him - he's just about being rich and popular.

He's managed to convince a lot of people that he is something that he is not, and that's sad, and it's brought out the worst in so many people, and that's what we are seeing today.

Have a look at this Charlie Rose interview with Senator Jeff Flake who's a much more traditional conservative, and FYI detests Donald Trump and 'fell on his sword' rather than go along with the toxicity. [1]

[1] https://charlierose.com/videos/30822

[jeremyjh]

I guess what a lot of us are struggling with is how anyone cannot see these truths for themselves in Trump. I don't need to listen to anyone but Trump himself to realize he lies constantly and has only a rudimentary grasp of how government and society functions. His history in popular culture speaks for itself. So what is going on with the 70 million people who can't see that plainly? The only conclusion we can reach is "he says the quiet part out loud" and that resonates with a lot of people. "They are sending us murders and rapists" was an early example that has stuck with me. Perhaps it is not a charitable view but nearly every office holding member of the GOP lined up to lick his boots after he said thousands of things like that.

As near as I can tell, Conservatism is deader than disco.

[reillyse]

I would agree. The explanation I have for it in the US is tribalism. Thats it. I'm an immigrant to the US and feel like I have an outsiders perspective. I find that American's suffer a from a severe case of Proportionality Bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_bias when they think about American Politics. They think that because Trump has had a large effect on American Politics, there has to be larger forces at play. "He's some kind of political genius", "He's playing 3D chess", "There is some kind of unexplained magic to his words" etc etc. It's much more basic than that, he found a way to speak to the baser parts of one of the tribes and turn them against the other tribe.He makes his tribe feel good and promises to get the other tribe who are very bad people. It's amazingly and shockingly basic.

[evgen]

It is both incredibly simple and readily apparent. What is interesting/amusing is how the further up the right-wing food chain you climb the closer you get to people who you _know_ understand the difference and can see what is happening and what is being said, but who will deny and justify for the sake of eliminating the cognitive dissonance between their own reasoning and what the leader of their tribe is saying.

Here on HN if is almost funny to watch the different flavours of Trumpkin try to explain and justify themselves. You have the hard-core believers who only barely manage to keep the racism and xenophobia in check but can still throw out a dog whistle all the way to the ones who probably once thought of themselves as principled conservatives but who are reduced to simple projection when presented with facts ('no, we are not the ones driven by fear and anger, it is the left...') As unpleasant as the Trump experience has been, one of its few benefits has been to let the truly cretinous among us feel like they have permission to drop the mask and show us who they really are.

[paulryanrogers]

While I'd agree Trump has indirectly revealed the priorities of many, let's take care not to permanently label people.

I was on the right most of my life and hated Trump. Yet he seemed to be the least worst for many single issue voters. Thankfully forums like this helped challenge my worldview enough to overcome the indoctrination of my youth. Now my entire perspective had flipped.

Everyone has the capacity to change. And that's much more likely to happen in a welcoming and curiosity friendly environment than an echo chamber.

[evgen]

As they say in Germany, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis. There is a lot of variation in political opinion that I enjoy and solicit and I enjoyed having some honest conservatives as friends, but to support Trump four years ago is bad and to support him today is unconscionable. I am happy to write-off those who spent the past year supporting trump and do not care if they have the capacity to change because as far as I and a lot of other people are concerned they decided to sit at the table with the Nazi.

[dashundchen]

This sums it up. Trump took low participation voters and made politics sport for them. The slogan "make libs cry again" - it's not about what he can do for them, it's about how he can hurt "the other". That his supporters identified with him so much every attack against him they felt was an attack on them.

The rabid cult of personality that popped up around him has been highly disturbing to watch. Decking everything out in shirts, hats, flying his name as a flag, painting your house with his name, covering your vehicle with flags. The non-stop rallies and campaigning even after he was elected.

And no, before someone trys to compare, it was not like that with Obama. People were excited about him but it did not become an everyday identity alongside a never-ending campaign.

[davrosthedalek]

I think that this is what cost him the election. Some people voted for Trump, some against Biden, some for Biden, and some against Trump. The latter two groups are 7 millions bigger than the first two groups. That's what we know. Looking at the Senat/House races, there seems to be a sizeable group of people voting Biden, and then pro Republican further down. I interpret that as "against Trump, but also against the general goals of Democrats as perceived by them". I believe this is because the Republicans managed to paint all Democrats as Bernie-like Socialists, while the Democrats did not manage to paint all Republicans as Trump like Idiots/Racists/Liars.

I'm not saying the Democrats should, but they should try harder not to be painted as Socialists, if they are not. Or be socialist. I don't think the latter is a winning strategy in America, but at least they would lose for what they stand for, not for what they don't stand for.

[thu2111]

The only conclusion we can reach is "he says the quiet part out loud"

If you ignore the last 4 years of analysis of what motivates Trump voters, why he's popular despite his personality issues and so on, then sure, you can "only" reach one conclusion. But it's the wrong one.

Still, it's great fun believing half of America is filled with racist hatred isn't it?

As near as I can tell, Conservatism is deader than disco.

It just drew basically level with the left despite Biden being far more presidential than Trump, and despite nearly the entire media and tech industry pulling every lever they could for Biden. That seems very far from dead.

[jariel]

I'm really sad to see so many Trump supporters as well, but ... but maybe you are young?

Bill Clinton banged a very young intern in the Oval Office.

Bill Clinton lied, deceived, distorted, mislead - and then very 'point blank' lied about that directly to the Justice system, which is illegal.

Do you remember that? I do.

Bill Clinton has legitimate accusations of sexual assault hanging out there against him - just like Trump.

Why did Democrats (and others) 'forgive him'? And 'look the other way'?

How was the Democrat Brand not 'destroyed forever' by a 'Serial Abuser in Chief' in Office?

Democrats (and others) forgave him, because they think it was not so bad, that ultimately he was a good person, the act was ostensibly consensual, the Republicans were making to much of it - etc etc..

Some people simply don't see a 55 year married old man, banging a 22 year old intern in a prestigious office as hugely relevant. Others do.

I think most Donald Trump supporters believe that he 'Loves America' that he's a 'Business Genius' who just 'Speaks Plainly' and sometimes says aggressive things, but that it doesn't mean much.

I personally don't think any of those things are true, but it's not hard to see how people watching Fox News might be 'believers'.

To some people 'they are sending us their rapists' is like an inappropriate Chines accent or an off colour joke - inappropriate and little bit offensive, but not existentially so.

"I guess what a lot of us are struggling with is how anyone cannot see these truths for themselves in Trump. "

I don't think they do see 'Traditional Conservative' in him - I think they see mostly something else and that's my point.

If the GOP base wanted a 'Traditional Conservative' there are a dozen other, more obvious choices.

But it's all moot: Trump really isn't much of a 'Conservative' in any way, it's a 'Bully Nationalist' which unfortunately 1/2 of Republicans will vote for because they want to, the rest will vote reluctantly.

Both traditional Conservatism and 'American Socialism' (i.e. Centre Left) are not 'dead' - they are everywhere but it's that populism is having it's time, and supported in the press.

The Intersectionalist Reactionaries on the Left are very close to taking over the Democratic party, much as Trump 'barn stormed' the GOP.

[jeremyjh]

I'm old enough that I voted for Clinton, and yes I did see it that way and since then I haven't criticized any politician about sexual indiscretions. I think it reflects negatively on character but its a common flaw.

I try to look past Trump's character flaws but they are so embarrassing and cringe inducing, and when you add the poor foreign policy, bungled COVID response and really very serious incitement of hatred, violence, and division he's created its really still quite perplexing but I appreciate your thoughts on it.

[jariel]

Trump's character flaws are clearly existential and deeply problematic, I think to any mature observer.

Not only is he a brutal narcissist who cares only about himself, he's willing to throw a democracy away for his vanity and power.

My articulation is more about 'mass perception' not so much what he actually is.

Clearly Bill Clinton is a good man, so are McCain, Romney, Obama, even Bush etc..

'Understanding Trump Support' is hard because what 'smart people see' is something completely different than what the plebes see. They think he's a genius, brilliant businessman, and probably don't realize how powerful his negative language about migrants etc. really is, they just don't understand what statesmanship actually is or how important that it is that he is a role model as well. I guess it's one of the more obvious problems of raw populism.

[amf12]

> Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.

I kind of agree with you. However - maybe I am wrong - but you seem to equate these values with "conservatism" and believe other people think these are ideals of "entitlement". I don't think non-conservatives, myself included think that way or don't believe in these values. But feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you.

[jariel]

You make a good point.

A lot of classical left/liberal and conservative values are not 'opposite' so much as 'orthogonal' and it's a matter of relative importance, focus etc..

[jonsno56]

Excellent analysis (not sarcasm; I enjoyed reading this)