[justicezyx]

I mean, no one can expect different thoughts from financial gamblers. Jack Ma was totally a non innovative person. Like his whole enterprise so far is following western examples and the playbook. Now he is happily adopting the financial revolution narrative, disguised under the tech innovator facade.

[dmix]

I would love to have something like Alipays integration here in Canada or in any western country.

They truly are doing something with technology that isn’t found anywhere in the west. Part of which is also due to WeChat penetration and coverage. But few western countries let you do so much with just a smartphone as China.

[uranusjr]

Trust me, you really don’t, I’m speaking in a country that did see much of the tech get adopted (Taiwan). I get how the method can be intriguing from a casual glance (I was like this when it started), but that quickly wore off when the wheels touched the ground. We spent way too much legislative resource trying to plug the holes, and I got to hear a lot of the problems from a friend of involved in regulating this (金融監督委員會 Financial Supervisory Commission). And after you finally spend enough efforts to make things work “properly” you’d basically end up duplicating the credit/debit card system. China made the method look successful and effortless because they can take shortcuts; for everyone else, just stick to cards, they are better in almost every way (if you get NFC working, which you should anyway).

[beaunative]

From what I've gathered from the news, China's regulators was never too concerned about Ant's role as a payment provider, but as a lender.

I don't doubt technical innovation would always be a burden for regulators and lawmakers, but that does not make it fit to say that such innovation are worthless, because they provide a value to the general public, and that should not be stopped because those in the power of authority needs to do more work to make it 'in control'.

Credit card wasn't invented because the lawmakers had drafted the perfect law, nor should mobile payment. The law always comes in afterward, as it should be.

[uranusjr]

I did not imply the innovation is worthless. That’s exactly how innovation should work, it is as valuable to prove something does not work as come up with something that does. But that value is only meaningful if others learn from that. In other words, the innovation of mobile payment is not worthless, but attempts to adopt it at this point would be.

[balola]

The big diffrence is debit card-based and credit card-based, Ant and Chinese banks take no responsibility of these one-off domestic transations and offer no consumer protection, while western banks need to worry about money-laundering and terrorism and risk management. WeChat Pay don't even offer customer support.

It's this special gated environment enabled payment tools, they just process this money and be done with it. Alipay & Wechat and Chinese banks don't care about what is your business doing are they shady or not, unlike Paypal.

[beaunative]

China's anti money-laundering law wasn't as strict as US's for sure, but that doesn't mean huge amount of cash flow from one or many accounts to another wouldn't draw red flags.

US banking system works that anyone can use the card even if they just found it on the street, and business owner can charge a card repeatedly for any amount even if the card owner is not present. The room for fraud is huge.

China's debit and credit card alike requires PIN code to send payment, where the owner would be required to confirm the number and enter the PIN code. And it has 2FA as a requirement for online banking, whether that's a text message received on a mobile phone, or a hardware 2FA. There is still room for fraud but a lot smaller.

To say US banks cares and Alipay, Wechat and Chinese banks don't care is kind of absurd. They exist in a almost entirely different financial ecosystem and norms. In the US, fraud protection is necessary otherwise no one would use their cards. While in China, fraud protection still needed, but rarely is the case. Those institutions only did what's necessary.

[glitchc]

I don’t believe this for a split second. I’m certain China cares if money being spent somehow harms the CCP. Their monitoring motivations are distinct from the west, but monitoring definitely exists.

[balola]

You don't have to, it's just the way banking is done in China, sounds ridiculous? Well, having banks blocking you transaction, and asking what it's for is it legitmate, or Paypal terminating accounts at will is ridiculous in China too, "it's my money none of your business". Also part of the reason why mobile games and micro-transation are so huge, there's no bank asking why are you spending repeatedly on Genshin Impact and do you want to take it back.

It's tied to your national ID for sure, but it stops there.

It's actually good for the CCP, coz corruption is lubricant and everybody is in it, you don't want to track who's behind this money, they don't even disclose how many dozen condos every official owns.

[glitchc]

Banks in US only block payments if they look like they might contravene US laws. China will have different laws, but moving large sums of money without reason is likely to raise flags over there too. According to your post, a Chinese bank will allow me to withdraw a million yuan in cash in one go without asking why and what I need it for. I find that difficult to believe.

No one tracks micro transactions, not in the States or anywhere. AML laws don’t kick in until 10K USD. And of course corruption is a problem in China. It’s also a problem in the States. None of these statements point to a crucial difference in banking. If anything a commercial bank in the US is far more likely to keep your transactions private, whereas a Chinese bank probably hands them over to the government as a pre-arranged periodic data dump.

[QuesnayJr]

Is theft via these small transactions common?

[balola]

It's not uncommon, there are various scams esp around e-commerce review boosting gigs that trick you into paying upfront but into different accounts/scan alternate QR codes, once the money is transfered, it's very hard to get it back if not impossible.

The police don't really pursue these cases as the debit card money is all instant and already gone and often small in amount (won't even register it as a case if the money is less than 450 USD), occasionally they will do a blanket operation and arrest some unlucky scammers to make an example, simmilar to irl thefts.

If your are talking about account hacking, SIM swap is quite difficult in China as basically anything is tied to national ID nowadays (even posting comments online, this does provide security to their business model, not to mention they are aggressively pushing facial recognition on the app level, I have to install a local police station app to unlock front door that regularly scans my face and tied to my WeChat, they are conducting census through WeChat BTW), but there are methods such as basestation jamming to force phones back into 2G and intercept text messages, these are fairly uncommon.

As I've said, many of the hard work has already been done by the state or isn't required at all, it's realy a paradise environment for these payment tools, probably only in China.

[octoberfranklin]

Maybe so. OP's point is that China doesn't force the banks to put burdens on their customers for the sake of this monitoring.

It's a big deal.

[glitchc]

If I have $100,000 USD equivalent in yuan in a Chinese bank account and try to have it transferred overseas in one go, they will certainly ask me questions. Similarly if I suddenly try to withdraw that amount in cash, I will be queried as well.

Ergo, as long as limits and thresholds exist, the banking systems are equivalent, and all we are left to quibble over is the what (or how much) and the why.

[balola]

You simply can't do that, Yuan is nowhere near a freely convertible currency, it's a fundamental difference.

Once foreign money enters China, it's very hard to get it out, the CCP has a ministry dedicated to the control of it. Most of the people don't have the need for it.

What you are saying is irrelevant to Ant and banks in general. Ant doesn't care about foreign markets or your dollars, it's a Yuan-only payment tool operates inside mainland China for Chinese people, simple as that.

[glitchc]

What exactly is truly innovative about Alipay? What features are missing from the current Canadian payments landscape that you feel Alipay can fill? Just curious.

[justicezyx]

Nothing is new in Alipay.

They developed an database called oceanbase and thought it would replace IBM's machine and DB2 for banks, they failed miserably because of the deep transactional nature of conventional banking is not working well in their system designed for online payment processing.

That's a out it.

[hungryforcodes]

Sorry, but I'd LOVE to avoid all the "innovative" spying and one vendor lock in you seem to ignore in your enthusiasm.

[dmix]

It doesn't have to be like China.

But we've already got a oligopoly of sorts with in the financial system (in the US heavily reinforced by policy after the last 2008 recession down to 5 mega banks and thousands of smaller banks went under). So it will be more like corporate surveillance.

Which yes privacy laws can protect. Especially here in Canada.

It doesn't have to be that way if we had competent privacy rights protections.

Especially not the way WeChat and Alipay has been integrated with the Chinese government.

[hungryforcodes]

Yeah I'm not sure why I was down voted for that -- literally if you don't have these two "apps" (which the government monitors and censors), you can't function in modern Sino city life. Why we would want that in Canada is beyond me.

I agree with all your points.

[knolax]

And you know this how? There are plenty of people there who get by fine without owning a phone.