[llamaz]

This is the same narrative of the civilized Europeans that colonized the rest of the world and led to the genocide of the Native American (Indians) and the Australian aboriginals. Our side is human and anyone that falls short of your values is less than human. I'm not a moral relativist, we need only look at the physical and mental health of animals raised in different zoos to see that there is an objective morality and a basic minimum decency for how to treat our fellow humans. But if you are going to violate this ethical minimum, then you're narrative is the _only_ one that's ever been used. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys.

This goes back to the debate between Augustine, a former good vs evil Manichean, and Pelagius. One believed that "everyone is bad" and warned against excessive hubris, while the other believed that those who choose to do evil do so out of their own free will.

In the pre-9/11 world, there was the idea that torture was a relic of the past, and we had made moral progress beyond such barbarities. But it was the leading liberal democracy in the world, rather than some third world dictatorship, that reintroduced the practice.

The United States trained the guerillas that eventually became the Vietcong in Vietnam, and the country went to war under the Gulf of Tonkin false flag. Similarly, the United States invaded Iraq under the WMD charade. In Afghanistan, it promoted the Islamist fundamentalism of the mujahideen, in order to fight the USSR friendly government that the Afghans themselves elected. The mujahideen became the Taliban, and a similar story of is true of ISIS and al-qaeda (US trained them to do their dirty work then lost control of them)

I don't think the United States is the root of all evil. But it's important to realise that the Chinese don't think of their country as an evil dictatorship, the same way that you don't view your country as "the bad guys". Rather, as St Augustine put it in his doctrine of original sin, we are all "the bad guys" and we need to reflect on the worse demons of our nature.

We have forgotten the Augustinian lessons, indulging in excessive pride and hubris, and failing to reflect on the same pattern that has been occurring cyclically for millennia.

[hcurtiss]

Yeah, but some countries actually torture prisoners routinely. See the parent article. This idea that the US hasn’t routinely taken the high road is ridiculous. Just wait until China is the superpower. You’ll long for the bad ol’USA.

[llamaz]

Yes, and the United States regressed back towards those countries. I don't think the United States is the "bad guy" or the root of all evil, I don't think the West is either. I just don't think that they're the "good guy" that routinely exercises restraint, unless you compare it to an imaginary hypothetical.

I don't support China either - I don't believe in the "good vs evil" narrative that was alien to the Ancient Romans and Greek pagans. The idea that there's historical moral progress culminating in the values of the United States is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. In Hegel's philosophy of right, which was fashionable in Germany, he believed that history culminated in the values of the Prussian constitutional monarchy.

It's unlikely that China will become a superpower. The United States, in the next few years, will no longer hold world wide hegemony, as it seems to be distancing itself from Europe among other countries. It's also unlikely that we'll return to a bipolar world, similarly to the period of the Cold War. It's more likely that we're moving towards a multi-polar world.