[humanrebar]

Some people, in some jobs at least, aren't productive enough to support themselves. It's not about "deserve".

Some people have a lot of potential but need a chance to prove themselves and gain experience. Maybe they would start by bussing tables and eventually own their own restaurants. They need a ladder to success with rungs that are actually climbable.

If we mandate that you must be able to support a family of four and save for retirement to work bussing tables, we won't have prosperous people bussing tables. We'll just have more self-service restaurants, sit-down dining will become more of a luxury service, and we'll have more wait staff struggling because they have to have fewer tables that they have to bus themselves.

The training you yearn for can happen by virtue of the economics of the industry. It's like apprenticeship or interning. Except it's working at entry level jobs and earning advancement. And it's egalitarian because anybody can be an excellent busser. Not everyone can talk someone into funding their education on spec.

[mLuby]

> If we mandate [a living wage]…

You're right, lots of exploitative jobs will be destroyed, and businesses will have to adapt. Thing is, they will adapt to the new market conditions, or else they'll be replaced by other businesses catering to the market's demands, or the market's demands will change.

In the painful transition period, lots of exploited "employed" people will become unemployed, and lots of businesses that can't survive without exploiting people will fail. That's the unfortunate "cancellation fee" we should pay before moving to a more ethical economy.

[humanrebar]

It's not exploitive to pay people a modest wage for modest productivity, especially if the role can be part of a successful career.

You also ignore the point that entry level jobs provide advancement opportunities that are sometimes better for disadvantaged folks (or even folks changing careers) compared to expecting them to (re)train at four year universities, etc.

People talk a lot about apprenticeship these days... Apprenticeships are entry level, low paid positions.

[benjaminjosephw]

You're not wrong as long as the definition of "modest wage" isn't subjective and is instead collectively agreed within society (i.e. a minimum/living wage).

I think you're saying the same as this Economist article[0] which says that "the workers who are most vulnerable to losing their job as a result of the minimum wage are those whose productivity is low". Empirical data on this also shows, perhaps counter-intuitively, that a "minimum wage can sometimes lead to higher rather than lower employment".

Entry-level jobs are important but so is human dignity and freedom. I don't think you need to sacrifice one for the other here - we can (eventually) have both.

[0] - https://www.economist.com/schools-brief/2020/08/13/what-harm...

[humanrebar]

There's nothing undignified about working an entry level job. I've done so myself, as have billions of others around the world.

[benjaminjosephw]

Agreed. There's a lot of dignity in honest work. Exploitation can rob people of that dignity but it doesn't have to.