[bigbubba]

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process.

I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity to study things that interest them, for instance by offering a broader range of educational 'tracks', or by reformulating lesson plans to make the material more interesting (explaining the real world applications or consequences of the subject matter.)

[grawprog]

>It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right?

That's the thing though, even with something you enjoy you will, or should hopefully, hit 'the grind'. That point where it gets hard and you force yourself to keep going even through.the parts you don't enjoy.

School forces you to do this, if you're teaching yourself something, you need to force yourself to do this.

I can't count the number of times i've heard someone say something like

'I tried learning/doing this new thing and it was fun for a bit but it ended up being way harder than I thought.'

And that's usually the point where they've given up or moved on.

But that's usually the point where learning breakthroughs happen and getting through the grind tends to cement those new facts or that new activity better.

That's usually the point where it starts being fun again too, until the next hump to grind through.

It's like an old nintendo game or something. One of those really hard ones that forces you to replay the same thing over and over again just to gain the tiniest bit of progress. Even though the game's probably fun, that's the point where people start throwing controllers and stuff. Yet when you get past those hard sections and make some progress. Suddenly, you feel good and have fun again.

Learning things is very much the same process. Even things you enjoy. The secret is to push yourself through the less fun parts.

Just quickly too, more of an aside, I feel like modern games lack this aspect and i think it's a big part of why many people complain about modern games. They don't stimulate and teach you through failure and repitition, there's usually no consequences, you have no breakthrough 'Aha I can do this now' moments, there's no learning or lessons to be had. Just mindless progression that never really feels like progress.

[dragonwriter]

> School forces you to do this

School often forces you to do a grind, but it's often an endless-treadmill grind, not a over-the-hump grind.

[sergeykish]

Good teacher can help to overcome barrier. Unfortunately there are not many good teachers. As other pointed out maybe one or two in public school.

I'm with you that practice is a king but blind struggle ruins passion. I've took salsa lessons for several years, drummed it wrong, have to unlearn bad practices. I've took guitar recently, overcome in a few months what could not in school (good enough instrument and youtube videos).

[bawolff]

Ancedotal, but all that sounds pretty foreign to me. I don't really think i learn like that.

[klyrs]

I've gotten good at a few things in life that required a "grind." The violin is the clearest example. Getting decent requires an hour or so a week -- you can generally fart around and play whatever's accessible to your skill level. Good requires an hour or two per day, of deliberate and focused practice. People don't play études for fun. Excellence requires several hours per day. Even Itzhak Perlman describes his practice regimen as tedious, and I once heard him say that he practices while watching TV, to alleviate the boredom. Paganini, on the other hand, played all day to forestall his father's physical abuse.

I was "good," for a time, but pursuit of excellence never met my cost benefit analysis

[bigbubba]

Surely the grind of learning to play a violin would be far worse if you disliked violins in the first place, right? If you force somebody who hates violins to practice playing one for hours a day, the grind would be intolerable and they'd probably hate their life. The people most likely to find the grind tolerable are the people who really want it.

[klyrs]

I was answering your question:

> It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right?

I'd summarize my answer as "no, it's still a 'grind'." To answer your followup, "yes, it can be even worse if you hate the basic act."

On a meta level: life sucks and involves hardship. There's value in grinding on things you hate. If you've only succeeded at things that you love, your success is quite likely fragile. Resiliency is developed by accepting, and grinding, your way to success at something you hate.

[calf]

> People don't play études for fun.

I do. I wish I could play them well.

[klyrs]

> I do.

Wow, I'm happy for you and only a little jealous.

I wish I could play them well, too. The sound and feeling of butchering them is what makes me dislike the experience.

[nemo1618]

This is true on its face for anyone who's spent hours and hours trying to beat a tough level of a video game -- we even call it "grinding" (at least in some contexts, namely RPGs), and to some extent it's not really "fun," but it also has a satisfying and compulsive aspect that drives you onward despite the challenge. I can't recall public education ever stirring the same sort of feeling in me (and I did quite well in school).

[TameAntelope]

Pleasure vs. satisfaction. Grinding is not pleasurable (in fact quite frustrating at times), but the satisfaction of completing the challenge may be more sustainable as a source of happiness.

[silentsea90]

Types of fun: Type 1: Fun while performing the activity Type 2: Bad while performing the activity, fun in hindsight Type 3: Bad while performing the activity, bad in hindsight

I would argue that Type 2 is desirable but doesn't fit in this framework.

source: https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale