[cakeface]

"The Manhatten Project wasn't a conspiracy any more than the CIA is a conspiracy. And the Manhatten Project is pretty well documented and would be carried trough with each new president in the know. Plus The Manhatten Project wasn't done against Americans."

He was not claiming that the Manhattan Project was a conspiracy, or a conspiracy against Americans. He was only citing it as evidence that a large number of people can work together in secret.

"If you are comparing those two projects as equals then you are basically insinuating that Obama must know about this project and is keeping it a secret?"

Again, not claiming the Manhattan project was a conspiracy. No reason to bring Obama into the argument.

"Otherwise it's pretty obvious that you are trying to build an argument out of basically nothing."

I think that he cited fairly clearly that there is evidence that is not "basically nothing" that he finds suspect. See the links that he posted.

"You are simply proving my point. You are claiming there are conspirators. Unless you are willing to assume the likelihood that there aren't any, that pretty much means end of any meaningful debate from my point of view."

No, he isn't proving your point. What he is stating is that in most explanations, whether the official or the truther's, there are conspirators. In the official version the conspirators are middle eastern terrorists.

[ThomPete]

Only problem is that a large number of people didn't work together in keeping a secret.

Very few knew what it even meant and it was all documented and known by parts of the government. A government in war btw. A secret weapon that was not used against it's own people.

So it's pure brute forcing unrelated events in a attempt to make something completely unrelated look like it's the same.

But I have no doubt that the next time around hitler will be used as part of the argument to show that a leader can blind his people to believe in anything using the news outlets as his propaganda machine.

Only problem is that we don't live in 1948 or 1984 for that matter.

[wil2k]

"Very few knew what it even meant and it was all documented and known by parts of the government. A government in war btw. A secret weapon that was not used against it's own people."

It's not brute forcing. You can place many people in their role and position, letting them do their job honestly without any need for them to have any clue at all about the greater scheme.

(This would probably apply more to the government scenario than to other scenarios, but for sake of the examples..)

Simple examples, more elaborate ones can easily be thought of with a bit more time:

Did the person giving the hijackers pilot training play a role that day? definitely!

Was this person to be blamed? in the know? no! Doing his/her job in good faith and with honesty? yes!

What about those people scheduling an air force training that day, causing many planes and pilots that normally defend the NY airspace to be away from the area? (assuming this was a 'purposeful move in the 'allowed to happen' scheme or something)

They were just following orders. Training pilots regularly is a good thing to do right? Who can predict that the lack of defensive capability that day would be such a bad/tragic timing? The people actually organizing the training? No! Would the pilots moving to a training need to be in the know? No! Can they be blamed? Not at all, but they might regret not being at their home base.

Just a couple of people in strategic places can move all the 'pawns' (not meant derogatory in any way!) to the correct place and time for the greater strategic (chess) plan to work / allowed to work / insert possible variations here.

These 'pawns' would often truly believe that they are doing their job to the best of their abilities and not be able to see any 'evil' in what they are doing.

Hope what I'm trying to convey is somewhat clear.

Once again, these examples are easier to make for the 'government scenario'.. which is not something that I fully support.

To be honest: I really don't know what really happened that day. I don't have a definitive answer that I want to 'push on to others'. I only know that the official story is something with too many holes and too many strange coincidences for me.

[ThomPete]

In other words you assume that those holes must be the evidence of a conspiracy. Why not just be honest about it? I have met so many of your kind with exactly the same arguments. At the end of the day you think there was a conspiracy. But instead of being honest about it you simply hide behind vague insinuations.

You have answered none of my arguments. Basically you think that most people are idiots being fooled by some clever evil leaders through the use of propaganda. Each and every of your posts illuminates that more than anything else.

[wil2k]

"In other words you assume that those holes must be the evidence of a conspiracy. "

No, once again, I'll not allow you to corner me because of my examples with which I'm trying to explain that the events as they happened could be explained BY a conspiracy and they could JUST AS WELL be explained by it NOT being a conspiracy..

"But instead of being honest about it you simply hide behind vague insinuations."

I mentioned before that I don't claim to know what happened that day. Only that I have unanswered questions or things that are not explained sufficiently for /me/. If you're happy with your views on that day, good for you.

Is it now allowed to NOT have a position these days? Many people don't hold multiple theories/world views/models in their mind at the same time, keeping all of them open while gathering more information.

I can't help that most people directly follow either the mainstream/official approach OR the alternative approach.

Once again: the world is not black or white, 'not with us or against us', etc

"You have answered none of my arguments."

And apparently you just don't get that my points are examples.. not my opinions..

"Basically you think that most people are idiots being fooled by some clever evil leaders through the use of propaganda."

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that propaganda nowadays would work just as well and insidiously as 60 years ago. And people don't have to be idiots for this to function, two words: human nature

And if you can't see how at least the whole situation was used to 'force through' all kinds of executive orders, laws and regulations and the creation of the Homeland security thing, I'm really sorry for you but then you've missed a few things that have changed in the world since that horrible day..

"Each and every of your posts illuminates that more than anything else."

I'm not a 'truther' and I'm not a 'mainstreamer'. That day is still very open-ended because of it's complexity of events.

I don't have a position, deal with it. And most of all, don't try to push me into that 'elitist' corner stating that I'm calling people idiots, fools whatever.

I'm generating scenarios and examples and I'm being realistic with what we've seen in human history and human nature/psychology.

So just stop trying to label me and put me in one of those two convenient boxes you have in your mind: normal/mainstream or truther/kook.

I'm neither!

[wil2k]

Oh and regarding:

"Only problem is that we don't live in 1948 or 1984 for that matter."

You forget one thing: human nature hasn't changed that much.

There are still plenty of modern examples of leaders that are blindly followed by people. E.g. cults, certain countries, etc.

Perhaps the risk of this happening in the West has gone down, but it's still there.

Do not underestimate the power of TV and the like.. and do not forget how fear is an effective method to sweep people into action. Perhaps not invading other countries.. but things like body scanners and privacy invasions are common place now.. why? fear + media outlets = powerful.

Different effects, same underlying principles..