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by mcv 2071 days ago
One thing that always surprises me about gymnastics is how inherently sexist it is. For nearly all sports, the male version of the sport is identical to the female version. Maybe women don't lift as much, don't run quite as fast, or do shorter distances (like in speed skating), but the basics of the sport are the same. Not so in gymnastics: men and women do entirely different things. Men are all about upperbody strength, women are all about flexibility and elegance. They're basically completely different sports, which I guess goes a long way to explain why athletes peak at totally different ages.

What if a female gymnast wants to do the horizontal bar or other "male" events? And even when they do have the same event in name, like the floor, they're still different for unnecessary reasons. For example, women have music, men don't. Why?

Obviously there are biological reasons why women aren't as strong, maybe it's unreasonable to expect women to do a heavy event like the rings, but most events could be equally accessible to everybody. But the sport itself forces athletes into very gender-specific roles. I can't help but wonder if unifying the sport may help to reduce this kind of abuse as well.

8 comments

The flexibility at least is a play to strengths in one of the few areas where men were at a disadvantage athletically. Women on average are more flexible and their lower spines retain more juvenile flexible as it is useful for a shift in center of mass with pregnancy. Upper body strength was the male answer for "what can they do which is more impressive if they are higher mass and worse at physical flexibility"? The why may have something to do with performance peaks attracting more attention for a sport (I would have expected at least a niche for upper body strength events for women and flexibility for men) but that could also be a chicken and egg thing with culture.

There certainly is sexist baggage involving women being considered more "ornamental" though.

I played college volleyball about a decade ago and made the first team. We trained with the womens team on some days and as one of the more even sports - the chasm in athletic ability was insurmountable. So we mixed teams when playing and never one versus the other.

My point is, where one falls short, play to your strengths. Doubly so in a competitive environment. Nothing stopping female athletes from doing rings. Absolutely nothing. Just like there was nothing stopping women from joining the mens junior or senior VB teams.

Rings is not an event in women's gymnastics, as rhythm is not an event in men's, except for a few countries.
>One thing that always surprises me about gymnastics is how inherently sexist it is. For nearly all sports, the male version of the sport is identical to the female version. Maybe women don't lift as much, don't run quite as fast, or do shorter distances (like in speed skating), but the basics of the sport are the same.

The rule differences between ice hockey for men and women are such that I've heard it said that they might as well be different sports.

Even in track and field, the diffrence in the height of the hurdles between the men's 110m hurdles and the women's 100m hurdles makes them very different activities.
>how inherently sexist it is

Let's talk about Beachvolleyball too.

What is the difference between the male and female version?
Women forced by their dress codes to wear revealing clothing.
Didnt that change 2012 Olympics?
Yes leggins are allowed now....
https://www.bustle.com/articles/171814-what-is-the-2016-olym...

"beach volleyball players are now also allowed to wear shorts and a top. While the top can be sleeved or sleeveless, the shorts are limited to a maximum length of three centimeters (1.18 inches) above the knee"

As far as I can see in that article, the dress code is now very similar between the gender in what they are allowed to wear (through it is possible that male players can go topless?).

> What if a female gymnast wants to do the horizontal bar or other "male" events?

The same thing that happens if I want to be a movie star or heiress.

> how inherently sexist it is

Something is sexist when you create sex criteria. So the whole sport is sexist since you have distinguish between men and women categories in most of the disciplines.

What really surprised me is the existence of chess championship and women chess championship.
If creating another league increases interest and access, it's good to have another league.
I suppose so, but if there's one sport where men and women should be able to compete on equal footing, I'd expect it to be chess. I'm surprised the Polgar sisters are still an exception.
Not really. Sexism is a prejudice.
It is sexist to have a male and female version of the sport. Are you implying sexism in this context is wrong?
Read the comment again pls.
Men in general don't like to perform to music, or see no need for it, as you say "biologicaly".

Women on the other hand like it, "biologicaly" as you say.

Why is it wrong to have different events for men and women?

> Men in general don't like to perform to music, or see no need for it, as you say "biologicaly". Women on the other hand like it, "biologicaly" as you say.

Yeah, that is why male dancers and male dancing is non-existend worldwide.

Or otherwise said, can you prove it is "biological" rather then cultural?

How many males do you know how genuienly like dancing?

You are picking a small population of males and generlizing to all of them. Most males have no interest in dancing.

Nothing wrong if you do, but most don't.

This is a view on a very specific society you may be exposed to. Some counterexamples: morris dancing where organisations were/are pushing for men-only dancing, dancing related to folk/military (see the (in)famous "Russian soldiers dancing" Twitter) and a lot of dancing-with-weapons, early Tango with male only dancing, and honestly too much African dance culture to go into here with men-specific dances. Check out the ratios in street dance event videos on YouTube. See the teenagers practicing dance moves in groups in your city. It's the reverse. The modern European population and "guys don't dance" doesn't generalise.

I grew up in an environment where boys dancing was made fun of and I didn't realise liking to dance is an option. Some exposure to the world corrected that.

> You are picking a small population of males and generlizing to all of them.

Ironically enough, that is what you are doing.

There's a whole wide world (both historically and right now) of men/masculine culture beyond the weird bland repression certain parts of the West currently have going on. Even in the Western world, I don't know how one would go about telling e.g. Black American men that they have no interest in dancing.

Breakdance.
> How many males do you know how genuinely like dancing?

Quite a lot.

> Most males have no interest in dancing.

AFAICT, this "men aren't expected to want to dance" thing is an extremely recent, and fading, Western social norm, not some kind of biological fact that is culturally invariant.

Quite a few adults, actually? None of them did dancing in an organized club. But, that is cultural artefact too.

Also, I had to explain to my kids multiple times that laughing at or mocking boys dancing or ballet is neither fun nor ok. Obviously boys and men don't want to do things that make them be cast as effeminate or mocked.

> "You are picking a small population of males and generlizing to all of them."

No, that's what you're doing. Just because some men don't like dancing, no men should get the opportunity to do so? And because some women like to dance, it has to be a staple of the female version of the sport?

If it's actually about dancing, then make it a dancing event that men and women can compete in. Tons of men dance competitively. But not in gymnastics. Which actually makes sense, since it's gymnastics, not dancing. But then why are the women's events about dancing?

Most of them, that i know?

This is more cultural/social than sex/biological based.

I see you’ve never heard of the country of India among many many others.

What you are describing is machismo Americana, not men.

Machismo is latin, and latin machismo men dance.