[o_class_star]

One of my friends had an interesting observation about novels. Themes aren't created so much as discovered. If you start from a theme a priori, you're at risk of being preachy. However, the amount of effort involved in constructing a long story, drafting it over and over, and then editing it to sufficient quality, is so substantial that no writer can keep it up for the amount of time a serious work takes unless he has a strong philosophical reason.

[minkzilla]

I think some truly excellent authors can start novels with themes in mind and still have a great book at the end. I am thinking C.S. Lewis specifically. Many of his works he knew the philosophical themes that would be present before writing them, but none of the come off as preachy (though some of his children books are basic) because they are such good stories.

On the whole though I do think a lot of discovery and learning takes place well writing. Though I have never written a novel so I do not really know.

[pmoriarty]

"I am thinking C.S. Lewis specifically. Many of his works he knew the philosophical themes that would be present before writing them, but none of the come off as preachy"

I don't know about that.. they come off as incredibly preachy to me.

C. S. Lewis was basically a Christian apologist, and that's very obvious in his work.

It's pretty hard to stomach for those of us who don't share his views.

A much better example is Dostoyevsky, who was probably at least as devout a Christian as Lewis, and also had an agenda, but he didn't make even the most repulsive of his characters in to two-dimensional caricatures as Lewis tended to do.

Instead, Dostoyevsky could get the reader to understand and even sympathize with the worst characters in his books, and see the world through their eyes... something Lewis could not aspire to as he always had to make his antagonists in to whipping boys for his faith.

[leftyted]

> It's pretty hard to stomach for those of us who don't share his views.

I don't think this is true. I'm not a Christian and I loved his books as a kid. Tolkien and Madeleine L'Engle wrote novels in a similar vein (that are also excellent children's books). Some fiction is full of cliches and thin characters but, surprisingly, this ends up working in its favor as it takes on a mythical quality.

I also like moral ambiguity and morally complex characters but good luck getting a child to sit through The Brothers Karamazov.

[dragonwriter]

> Tolkien and Madeleine L'Engle wrote novels in a similar vein (that are also excellent children's books).

Tolkien very much did not write Christian allegory/apologia in the guise of fiction, though he did remix Christian themes. So I wouldn't say Tolkien’s books were much at all in the same vein as Lewis’s.

[Maursault]

Tolkien said many times he despised allegory, but it is hard to ignore what could accurately be called the Christian rebirth of everyone's favorite wizard.

[pmoriarty]

"I'm not a Christian and I loved his books as a kid"

As a kid the Christian overtones go right over your head.. as an adult they're a lot more glaring, and (to some of us), grating.

"Tolkien and Madeleine L'Engle wrote novels in a similar vein (that are also excellent children's books)."

I loved Madeline L'Engle as a kid, but tried to pick up A Wrinkle in Time recently, and couldn't bear all the Christian preachiness. Worked for me as a kid, though, and back then I had no idea that was in it. I guess that's saying something. But as an adult it's nauseating.

[minkzilla]

I think it may be different if you are philosophically opposed to the themes the author is trying to convey. My views do somewhat align with CS Lewis so I am biased. But the reason I specifically mentioned him is because he has many overtly Christian themes he actively portrays in his novels but I never feel like he is banging me over the head with obvious allegories. His novels are not overly complex but have much depth in terms of the characters and the people and themes they portray. Narnia is an obvious exception, but it is a childrens book. I am currently reading Till We Have Faces and would highly recommend it. It has a Christ like figure, but the more interesting part of it is the exploration of relationship and love.

With Dostoevsky I do not know if he really set out to convey a specific philosophical truth or not. To me his novels seem more of an exploration of human suffering and what living in his day was like. But I am not Dostoevsky scholar.

Tolkien may be a better example. You can easily read Lord of the Rings without picking up any Christian symbolism.

[dragonwriter]

> But the reason I specifically mentioned him is because he has many overtly Christian themes he actively portrays in his novels but I never feel like he is banging me over the head with obvious allegories.

Even outside of _Narnia_, Lewis is known for rather heavy-handed and direct allegory. I mean, I guess it might seem to not be hitting you over the head if you compare it to something that goes beyond allegory to direct interpretation, like the _Left Behind_ series, but...

> Tolkien may be a better example. You can easily read Lord of the Rings without picking up any Christian symbolism.

That's because, while there is considerable inspiration from Christian morality and mythology in LotR, Tolkien was actively opposed to allegory and thus did not write it or use the kind of direct symbolism associated with it.

[watwut]

> Narnia is an obvious exception, but it is a childrens book.

I liked Lewis as a kid, but found him unusually preachy, even for a children book. I mean, I probably cant think of a children book that would be more obviously about hamming moral-education-point into you. While many children book try to teach some values, they tend to deal with much more nuance then Narnia.

[kinghtown]

Not quite my favourite novel overall but I adore the way Joyce plays with circulation in Ulysses. Water imagery, reincarnation, myth becoming reality which becomes myth, and of course the return of Odysseus to Ithaca. It’s just so masterful and was obviously premeditated to a huge degree. It’s got to be, Joyce mines the same symbolism in Finnegans Wake (even the titles are saturated with it, more so with FW.)