[larzang]

I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they're perfection, and I'd hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it's been well over a decade with the 4000 too.

But nope, it's dead, and the replacement isn't nearly as good.

[mrsharpoblunto]

I used the 4000 for a number of years, but found that it was causing problems in my right shoulder. The reason is the inclusion of a full numpad makes the keyboard so wide that your mouse hand has to sit really far to your right, causing your shoulder to be in a position of constant rotation and eventual strain. I eventually took a hacksaw to it to remove the numpad, which improved things - but it was the main reason I preferred the successor (sculpt) as the numpad is a separate detachable piece. These days I'm a split keyboard ergodox weirdo because it lets me put a trackpad in between the keyboard segments which means my shoulders can stay in a neutral position the whole time

[BeetleB]

Have you ever tried switching to using your left hand for the mouse. It is generally recommended for ergonomic reasons even if you don't have a keyboard issue. It'll seem weird to your brain at first, but I got used to it pretty quickly, as did everyone I know who has tried.

When I was in grad school (before I had any ergonomic pains), I had my mouse on the left side at work, and the right side at home - so I was using both configurations daily.

[ansible]

I switched to mousing lefty a long time ago. If you want to get up to speed, just play a few games of solitaire or something like that.

Unfortunately, gaming while mousing lefty is often inconvenient. Many games are set up assuming your left hand is on the keyboard. In most cases you can re-bind the keys though.

[muststopmyths]

After ~20 years of using the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards, I switch to a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. I looked at all the other options and this one seemed the most reasonable for my needs (conventional layout, excellent tilt/split).

I've been very satisfied with it. I was skeptical about mechanical keyboards (even though I'm old enough to remember the original ones), but this thing has been a game changer. I will never go back to membrane keyboards, and the ergonomics of the Kinesis are perfect for me.

Microsoft still sells the 4000 for $50 though, and you can get it for as cheap as $35 if you hit an Office Depot with stock (pre-pandemic anyway, have no idea about the current retail situation).

[StillBored]

Is is dead? Its still has a MSRP listing on this page:

https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar...

Along with a "#1 Best selling brand of ergonomic keyboards" icon that isn't on any of the other ms keyboards I just checked.

There have been times when they stopped producing them for a while and I thought they were done. But they have come back after a year or so.

Although, I was at best buy last year and they were $15 each and I bought the entire stock out of the store and its stashed in my attic. So maybe they are planning on an updated version. The only problem with them is really the keyboard feel is a little squishy, but nowhere near as bad as just about 99% of the other non mechanical keyboards out there.

MS has killed the intellimouse a couple times too, and they keep resurrecting it. And it keeps being this crazy good "sleeper" mouse. The latest "Classic Intellimouse" is again maybe the best tracking mouse out there. I just went through my mishmash of various high end mice and swapped them for the classics because I slowly over the span of a year or so (and lots of messing with the tracking on a couple high end logitech mice that cost 4x) came to the conclusion that it simply tracked better on the machine I had one plugged into. I have a desktop resolution that is crazy high, and the combination of sufficient acceleration+fine sampling required to land a mouse pointer on a small button somewhere on the screen is difficult on all but the best mice. I recently found myself struggling to do accurate text selection, swapped in the MS mouse and problem solved. The buttons and infinite scrolling thing on the Logitech/etc will be missed, but at the end of the day its about tracking, and MS again delivers.

[physicles]

I also feel like we hit peak input around 2000 with the Natural Keyboard Elite and IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0 (thankfully, Razer makes mice that are nearly identical).

I've been using the Natural Keyboard Elite since 2001. I'm on my second one, not because the first one broke, but because it was so dirty that I replaced it in 2012. Really regret getting rid of the old one.

I never liked the newer Microsoft ones as much, and I can't go back to a straight keyboard, so I'll have to go down the rabbit hole when this one breaks. This discussion has been really informative.

[theptip]

That keyboard with actually good switches would have been perfect. The squishy rubber comes on the ergo 4000 are really hard to come backs to after using a good keyboard. But the layout is excellent.

[bbbobbb]

What don't you like about the replacement (nit the sculpt, the actual new design)? I consider it strictly better (namely because of the space bar being better).

[Arainach]

1) The new Office Key is worthless, in my way, and cannot be remapped. Same for the emoji key.

2) Whatever the button on the left they threw between Ctrl and Windows destroys my mental memory constantly. I was hitting it all the time and never wanted it.

3) They moved Num Lock off the Numpad. Every time I need to find it I have to search because the new location is so counterintuitive and stupid.

4) Rather than one central location to check for the status of *lock, I have to look at keys scattered across the keyboard (including in non-intuitive locations such as "not on the num pad" for num lock)

5) They moved the Print Screen button to another place I'd never look for it.

I wasn't a fan of moving F6 to the left hand but would have gotten used to that eventually.

I had used the Ergo 4000 for 15+ years (and various older Microsoft ergos before that), but this made enough frustrating changes that caused me to look into alternatives out there. I ended up on the Kinesis Freestyle Edge. I didn't want to have to learn a radically different layout (Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage) and have to change every time I moved to a laptop or other machine, and the Freestyle gave me a mostly conventional layout, mechanical keys, and a physical split with enough tilt/tent to get to a very comfortable position.

[this_user]

Num lock is annoying, but for me the F6 key is the bigger issue. Even after half a year or so, I still regularly hit the wrong key.

The new pressure point took some getting used to, but I like it now in comparison to the 4000. The only real issue with that one was how easily it would break from spilling even just a small amount of water. I must have lost three of those that way over the years. Allegedly, the new one is more water resistant.

[jankotek]

I had 3 of those, but they are very unreliable. Contact foil always fails after couple of years.

[StillBored]

I haven't had one of the "Natural 4000 v1.0" keyboards fail yet. There was a run of them a few years back where the quality sucked though. I had new ones where brand new out of the box one had to mash some of the keys really hard to get them to register.

As someone else said though, they are very susceptible to crap working its way under the membrane since its oddly shaped (and there are a bunch of individual sections IIRC). I've fixed the coffee on the keyboard problem a couple times by opening them up, and very carefully cleaning them (both the contacts and the membrane) with isopropyl and lint free q-tips.

[jankotek]

I did the cleaning bit, even tryed soldering. Maybe moist corroded something, no idea.

[sethammons]

Check out cloudnine. It is a split mechanical that is super similar to the 4000.