[hamiltont]

For what it's worth, I have an almost identical experience. Build quality is not good, and every service-center visit leaves you feeling like they are stuffing the service centers with way more issues than the people there can handle. Even with all this, the drive feel of my MS is insane and the screen/app are lightyears ahead. I honestly enjoy driving again, even pre-pandemic with crazy traffic. Their offering is so good it outweighs the crappy support. If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately.

Side-note: service at Tesla used to be golden. When they first started, they all knew they were pricy cars and everyone expected some growing pains leading to QC issues. It was great - they would loan you a top-model performance tesla while your car was in the shop (great up-sell!!!), they were doing far more of their "mobile service" (super handy, they drive to you and fix the car where you are), and you would get one agent that called you almost daily with an update.

As they have expanded more towards mass market they have gone the way of google - trying to automate humans out of the loop. It's basically a miracle to talk to a human at a service center now, everything is "schedule it in-app where you get 200 characters to explain your issue, we send over an estimate, you can't call to discuss it either approve or don't, drop your car, use our SMS platform for 100% of communications because email might "violate your privacy" (read: leave a data trail), handle the fact that different agents get your SMS at different times and some have no idea what the history is, handle that agents now "have to reply to all messages before they leave" and you're getting hurried "here's my panicked update" messages at 11:30 at night.

I personally feel they missed an opportunity to offer "luxury service lanes" for folks buying the luxury line when they went mass market.

[tallanvor]

I rented a BMW (not a luxury model, the cheapest automatic available from Sixt in Denmark), and the experience was much better than any car I've driven before. The touch screen worked fine, and having a big map on the center console and a small map on the panel behind the steering wheel was really impressive to me. Adaptive cruise control, lane assist, and proximity warnings made driving much less stressful than it used to be.

But I also have owned a car in 12 years, have only rented 4 cars in that time, and borrowed a parent's car occasionally when visiting them, so I don't really know if BMW's work is really ahead of many others or if they're more standard features you see in all cars.

[kevin_thibedeau]

How much of that BMW will still be working after five years?

[Unklejoe]

Personal anecdote: I'm still driving the 2011 BMW 335i that I bought in 2014. It now has 265,000+ miles.

The key with owning a BMW is to do all of the maintenance yourself. That brings the cost of ownership back down to planet Earth.

I've replaced the water pump twice, high pressure fuel pump once, and the radiator. Plus a few odds and ends.

If I had paid the dealer for this work, I'd be totally in the hole.

One thing I will give BMW is that they know how to design a chassis. The car has all of the original suspension components and the steering is still as tight as the day I got it. No clunking, no rattles, no bouncing, etc.

[StrictDabbler]

Did BMW learn a lot from the nine production years where their chassis cracked so badly that the wheel supports reliably tore away from the rear subframe? Or the control arms bearings that would disintegrate every 50k? The rear differential bushings and the GUIBO flex disc that both require regular replacement to prevent the car destroying itself?

Not to mention the little stuff, like the window regulators and sunroof self-destructing, the ignition tumbler corroding and disabling the car's internal bus so the lights freaked out, or the headlight mountings disintegrating.

As the owner of an E46 that I purchased used at 100k and now sits defunct at 155k I'm baffled by your comment. I'd fix everything on that car and four unrelated things would break the next month. "Preventive maintenance" wasn't oil changes and brake pads... it consisted of half-replacing major systems at regular intervals.

Maybe they just got their shit together on the newer models, but yeesh.

[CedarMadness]

The E46 is pretty easy to work on, and the subframe thing they fixed for free (after some lengthy lawsuits). I took mine to 200k and never really had any big problems, just the usual stuff (DISA, water pump, oil filter housing leaks, a/c relay, one window regulator). I think the 325 might have had it worse though.

[solotronics]

Or you could instead own a Toyota/Lexus that needs basically nothing except oil over 200k miles. Mine have been indestructible.

[adpcm]

Everything. Why do you think it would not?

[keeganpoppen]

from what i understand they are somewhat notorious for being fickle / needing lots of maintenance. which is certainly the experience my father has had with his, haha. still loves it, though.

[llampx]

BMWs have taken a big leap forward in reliability since the E36 and E46.

[amatecha]

Dang, this sounds like taking literally everything I hate about "the future", and doubling down on it. I just had a bad experience with a dealership where I thought my thorough explanation (including error codes) was sufficient to narrow down the issue, but they completely ignored anything I said and did their own thing, which ended up solving exactly nothing. I ended up getting the diagnostic fee waived and have now taken the vehicle to an independent shop, where I can speak 1:1 to the owner and actually have my input listened to and respected.

[zdragnar]

Speaking of hating the future, the all-digital, gigantic touchscreen interfaces terrify me.

I have a 2011 F150 lariat trim truck, and it is not only swanky on the inside, but isn't phased at all by hauling timber, logs or back woods dirt trails that smaller vehicles get stuck in.

One of my favorite features, though, is that there is NO touchscreen. Every control is a physical button or knob, and I can use any of them from touch and muscle memory alone.

I fully expect the truck to survive another 200k miles or so, but dread the day I have to get something newer.

[xorcist]

> I can use any of them from touch and muscle memory alone

Also with gloves. Large parts of the planet may appreciate that.

[zdragnar]

Ha, I can't believe I forgot to mention that, especially with our winters. I guess I am even less prepared for the future than I thought :(

[gbronner]

I regularly haul pipes, skis, boards, furniture, or other long and awkward objects that would destroy a touchscreen, or at least render it unusable for the journey.

Physical buttons are so much more durable.

[maxdo]

It's very hard to destroy screen with protection, and it's super easy to destroy some tiny manual control e.g. anything related to air conditioning, tesla interior is minimalistic, no even air plastic fins, so if you have that stuff inside, model Y or 3 is the best choice for you :)

[buran77]

"Cracked button" really doesn't seem like a realistic issue. And they really don't fall off easily. You're free to have your preferences but the reality is still that most physical buttons are incomparably more durable than a touchscreen, especially a large one, especially if it still happens to be a consumer grade laptop screen. Simplicity has its benefits.

[rytis]

And if/when the buttons crack/fall-off there's a very good chance that you can fix it there and then with a drop of super-glue. Try that with fancy touchscreen...

[zdragnar]

I am sympathetic to your point; glasses can be very durable nowadays.

In this scenario, though, I would be most concerned with scratching the screen. That, And replacing a broken knob is surely cheaper than a gigantic touch screen should it be actually damaged.

[amatecha]

You're joking, right? I'm not convinced any Tesla vehicle is a good choice for anyone, after seeing this album earlier: https://www.flickr.com/photos/136377865@N05/sets/72157658490...

[dontcarethrow2]

That was scary to look at. The worrying part is they all look like new cars, many of them with low mileage. This doesn't look safe for anyone on the road.

[ekanes]

Same boat. Trading in my fancy Chrysler Pacifica minivan for a Toyota Sequoia with physical AC knobs. Right now I have to wait for a computer to boot up, and then click to accept the terms and conditions. Every. Time.

[p1esk]

I got a 2020 Pacifica - I don’t need to use the touchscreen to perform any essential tasks. The AC has physical buttons and a knob. I typically just ignore the screen when I drive and there’s “screen off” physical button.

[ekanes]

Does your AC start instantly when you turn on the car? Mine doesn't.

[p1esk]

On a hot day I actually start the car remotely and it automatically starts the AC a few minutes before I get into the car. Mine is a hybrid so I can do this even when it’s in my garage.

[mind-blight]

This is why I love Subaru. Their new cars have a touch screen, but it's mainly for display and advanced settings. Every important control (audio, lights, climate control, etc.) is analog

[conception]

Not the 2020 outback. So disappointed as was looking to upgrade to a 2020 but the touchscreen everything made me leave it behind. Got an ascent instead because they had a deal.

Mazda is the only company doing it right these days.

[mszcz]

Seconded. Just bought a Mazda 6 and one of the reasons was a sensible, buttons-first infotainment system. There's a knob in the center console that I can use to control everything. Besides that, the seat warmer/cooler, the AC, all the basic stuff is controlled by buttons.

But the kicker is that the infotainment system has a touchscreen, but the touch functionality is _disabled_ if the car is moving, because they think it's a hazard to have a person operate it while driving.

[Rebelgecko]

It also takes around 4-5 button taps to do things like turn off the heated seats. In most cars you can do that without having to take your eyes of the road

[43920]

The AC controls are moved to the touchscreen in the new Outback.

[suby]

Yes, agreed 100%. I firmly that believe touch screens in cars are a safety hazard.

I think we're going to collectively realize that putting touch screens on everything is a mistake. It prevents you from being able to use an interface unless it has your attention / you are looking at it.

[tallanvor]

I agree that anything you are expected to need to adjust while driving should have a physical knob, button, or switch. That doesn't preclude you from having a touch screen to do other things though.

[dreamcompiler]

All the screens in cars I've tried have made me want to hammer a screwdriver through them because their software was so terrible.

Except for one: The Tesla screen. I'd still prefer no screen at all, but Tesla seems to hire software engineers who understand that human factors are a thing, and who seem to have an actual degree in computer science.

[Dahoon]

Mazda is lightyears ahead. Screen, yes. Touch, no.

[hamiltont]

Ha ha I totally feel that. Especially for a high-ticket item, give me a human to talk to!!

I can't stand it when support is crippled by "policy" - half the time I think they can't either.

[toss1]

Seems that these sorts of "policies" & practices strongly contradict Musk's semi-famous directives about crossing company boundaries to get things done, not respecting the chain of command [0,1]

This forces everyone into the same malfunctioning funnel, and it doesn't appear to work for the employees either.

Tons of respect for Musk's accomplishments, but I hope it doesn't go the way of Google which is famous for nonexistent customer support...

[0] "Anyone at Tesla can and should email/talk to anyone else according to what they think is the fastest way to solve a problem for the benefit of the whole company. You can talk to your manager's manager without his permission, you can talk directly to a VP in another dept, you can talk to me, you can talk to anyone without anyone else's permission. Moreover, you should consider yourself obligated to do so until the right thing happens. "

[1] https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/this-email-from-elon-musk-...

[soyiuz]

> If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately.

VW's commitment to the electric market with ID3 and ID4 is a big deal, given that the success of their Golf/Touareg platforms. VW/Audi fit and finish are second to none, along with their size and ability to compete at the entry-level price point.

[kazen44]

Also, something like a renault zoe is selling like hot cakes because it is a relative cheap and small car.

Also, it's a really simple car aswell (which is great in my opinion).

[hamiltont]

thanks for the pointer

[rk1987]

My experience with service center has been exactly the same.