[bmd3991]

Edit: The below applies to people who don't want kids. I get why you wouldn't want to raise kids in somewhere like NYC (though I can also see the inverse).

I don't comment often on HN but I feel like I had to chime in here with a bunch of questions. These may sound inflammatory but I mean them sincerely, I just don't see where people are coming from. I understand that a lot of the things I'm listing are negatives for some people, I'm just shocked that it seems like they're negatives for 99.99% of people. Like, I'd expect at least a little more of a balance

I don't understand all of the hate for big cities recently. I mean do THAT many people truly hate living in a big vibrant city? Do that many people really want to have to get into their car and drive 25 minutes to the only (probably subpar) ramen shop in town. Does everyone just want a big 6 bedroom house that they can sit in and read/watch TV all day? Are you gonna go out on all that land more often then you would go out to eat world class, multicultural food? No one likes/wants public transit anymore? Having tons of theaters, shops, bars, etc around? You don't want access to the [some of the] most interesting jobs in the world? Surrounded by people who are world class at what they do? Being able to go to a bar and find someone who's a musician, someone who's an actor, someone from wall street, someone who sells hotdogs, etc all in the same place? How could you go from NYC to Madison, WI and not be so bored that you want to blow your brains out? It's a completely different world.

Maybe it's just the midwestern cities that I've been in, but they're all so dead. Everyone just seems to be ok with the status quo. Everyone just goes home and watches TV until work the next day. Maybe once a year they take a beach vacation, and then the other week they have off they see family for the holidays.

I mean yes, I get that it's expensive. I'm just surprised that SO may people have been seemingly staying in this place that they hate, driving up rent prices for everyone who wants to be in the city, just so they could keep whatever job they have. I mean if you really hated the city wouldn't you have looked elsewhere by now? It's not like it's competitive to get a job in one of these midwestern cities, so surely that great job you had in NYC that tied you there would guarantee you a way out of the city.

[lotsofpulp]

>I mean yes, I get that it's expensive. I'm just surprised that SO may people have been seemingly staying in this place that they hate, driving up rent prices for everyone who wants to be in the city, just so they could keep whatever job they have. I mean if you really hated the city wouldn't you have looked elsewhere by now? It's not like it's competitive to get a job in one of these midwestern cities, so surely that great job you had in NYC that tied you there would guarantee you a way out of the city.

The level of divergence of economic growth opportunities between some economic regions over others can make it rational for people to stay in a place they hate. Even if you can get a job in any other city, maybe it might not last for the next 10 years. The real risks in your life start coming around age 50 when your health starts faltering, and your healthcare costs go up and at the same time your employability might go down.

Also, quality of life as you get older in VHCOL like SF and NYC is definitely not as nice if you're not very high income. You spend all your time commuting to work, and I found that people were basically unavailable Mon to Fri. Whatever life they had was all on weekends, and even then it's allocated scheduled events. Whereas in less competitive areas, you can go have dinner at a friend or family's house after work on a weekday, and you can go to the gym, and be there for your kids because you're not spending 90 min + on the subway or train or having to allocate extra time due to public transportation service outages.

[bmd3991]

All good points, nothing to counter on my end lol

[tjr225]

I have a family(kid, partner, dogs) and just relocated from the Midwest back to Seattle.

I couldn't stand living in the Midwest and lasted just under a year. I grew up there, and have lived in a couple larger cities throughout the midwest. The weather is absolutely terrible and if I lost my remote tech job I'd be SOL until I could find another one. It is harder to find other parents/families/friends with things in common with, as well.

Another thing people don't talk about is the crime. Here in Seattle we have a lot of crime but not a lot of violence. In larger midwestern cities there are huge poor black neighborhoods, even entire parts of cities encompassing many neighborhoods, where the violence and suffering is incredible. Years ago, I used to live on Troost Ave in Kansas City, for example. Troost itself can be dangerous but is mostly fine- go a half a mile east and drive around and it is almost unrecognizable as America as someone who grew up white and did not have to see it. Bullets literally went through the window of the library my wife worked at.

I think either leaving or wanting to leave or big cities or job hubs/writing articles about leaving big cities or job hubs is something that is "in vogue" right now.

Probably a symptom of expensive housing and a pandemic that forced everyone to go remote. People, for some reason, love to dog on big cities/west coast but these coastal cities have undeniable positives to living in them; Weather, nature/mountains/ocean/public lands, interesting work, high pay, cultural stuff, etc- all things I want my child to grow up with even if it is expensive.

[justin66]

> Here in Seattle we have a lot of crime but not a lot of violence. In larger midwestern cities there are huge poor black neighborhoods, even entire parts of cities encompassing many neighborhoods, where the violence and suffering is incredible.

I don't think those living and working in San Francisco are exactly strangers to human misery and poverty.

[vangelis]

They call it the Troost Line for a reason unfortunately.

[dogman144]

Yeah parts of St. Louis past the bridge/river and going west were out of this world. Hard to believe it's the same country.

[williamstein]

There are also lots of more rural areas within 45 minutes of Seattle, with even lower crime and more space.

[curiousllama]

Don't forget Chicago is the 3rd largest city in the country. It's a wonderful foodie town, has great theaters, public transit, etc - everything I always hear is great about NYC. You're thinking Cleveland (yes - that's dead), not Chicago, Minneapolis, or Pittsburgh.

[bmd3991]

You're right, but I personally don't count Chicago. A distinction needs to be made between "big city" and "midwestern city" - they aren't mutually exclusive like some are alluding to (probably not on purpose). I think that it actually goes against the trend, since I'd consider it a "big city". It is interesting that so many people are moving there, considering the hot thing these days is moving away from big cities. Of course part of that is the fact that it has a good COL, and a lot of big city perks

[dogman144]

Putting aside that Prince and the LGBT capital of the midwest make Minneapolis the coolest of cool, Chicago is the real dark horse in all of this.

The costs there, especially for apartments, and in really interesting areas(as in actually interesting to a NYC person), are honestly no slouch. Add in legit fintech jobs and salaries, it sounds like only the state politics and city challenges are keeping people away.

[bmd3991]

I'd say Chicago is such a dark horse that it's unfair to include it in this article. Well not unfair exactly, but it doesn't fit in with the rest of the list given its size. The list is about midwestern cities, but we all know it's really talking about the migration of people from large to medium sized cities, of which Chicago is not one

[dogman144]

Yeah not quite apples:apples. I'd move to CHI way quicker than I would Cleveland.

[dogman144]

It's a big country I guess, and I don't mean that to be sarcastic and snarky. That's usually the disconnect. There are places between the poles of NYC to Madison, WI, York, PA, and other suburban hell. And, they also aren't millennial ex-pat havens like Austin/Nashville, where the "culture" is a strip of craft breweries and expensive pizza places and basically Brooklyn 2.0. When you throw in cities with more access to the West's geography, you start to see why places like Denver and Bozeman got huge (and joined millennial ex-pat land).

So what do these in-between places offer, besides the cost of living? You tend to get off the beaten path nature where the cost of living in the city means you can actually afford a vacation home (Minneapolis and Chicago get the great lakes northern coast lines), funky college towns that grew some tech talent for various reasons and are college-y and by great natural areas (old Bozeman, old Austin, old Boulder, current Ft. Collins), and lastly I'd say genuine immigrant population and their subcultures, and food to match. There are legitimate Little Italys out there, but they just left NYC because it's too expensive (or also refugee resettlement plans). Minneapolis, Syracuse, parts of Tennessee, parts of TX that aren't Austin, etc.

You throw a tech salary into that mix, and it becomes really fascinating.

[bmd3991]

Agreed about the trendy medium sized cities - people love them but they seem so bland to me for the same reason (great another craft burger place...).

You're right that there are probably more natural little Italy's out there, but no way you'll find an equally good Chinatown within a 2 hour drive of that little Italy. But, if you love Italian food and hate Chinese, then maybe that's a trade you're (not you specifically) willing to make.

I can see the access to nature as a reasonable trade off, if you're out hiking every weekend then maybe that could make the M-F in the smaller town more liveable

It definitely is an interesting situation

[dogman144]

So, I'd actually push back on that and say you will find cities with a variety of "new" immigrants and related community cultures stacked on top of the older immigrant communities that are still there (think your various Eastern Europeans). It makes for a unique mix.

There's a variety of reasons for this I could speculate on, and three of the firmer ones are refugee resettlement (Minneapolis and Somalis, pre-cool Cali and Hmong, Michigan and Syrian refugees), Central/South American immigration patterns beyond the border states, and military bases which tend to show up all over the midwest/west/southeast/southwest (Korean, Vietnamese, German and maybe smaller ones but those stand out).

These communities exist alongside the traditional cultural elements of the city and can often be blocks away. But, the areas tend to look a lot less like Chinatown and more like Flushing - maybe more insular, but still plenty authentic.

[bmd3991]

Edit: The more I think about this the more I realize I'm probably unqualified to be having this discussion, since I really haven't lived in enough of these places to talk diversity of communities

Yeah I mean I agree with you in theory, but I just haven't seen that in practice. I'm not saying you're wrong - the most likely answer here is that I just haven't been to the places that you're talking about.

All of the midwestern cities that I've lived in have definitely lacked a lot of cultural diversity, even if you drive out to the outskirts of the city where the majority of minorities tend to live (again, in the cities I've been to).

Maybe because the majority of people in these cities aren't as interested in the diversity, so the diverse populations can't really start a business that succeeds since no one (outside of their tiny community) wants to go there?

Or, I'm just wrong and haven't been to the right places

[talentedcoin]

Maybe because not everyone is a brainwashed victim of jumped-up consumer society. Maybe you don't care about the new ramen place, and maybe you don't care about other people's ideas of "world class:". Maybe you'd rather spend time with your family.

If you go to Madison WI and want to "blow your brains out" maybe the problem is not Madison WI. Some of us do like the peace and quiet. Different strokes for different folks.

[bmd3991]

Yeah I mean I was trying to convey that I understand why SOME people would like that, and maybe I failed at that. Though, to be fair, I don't think wanting to enjoy a good bowl of noodles as often as possible is as bad as a thing as you're making it out to be lol. I don't think there's anything objectively wrong with Madison. I'm just surprised that it seems like 99.999% of people would prefer that lifestyle to one in a bigger city. Family is something that throws a wrench into my whole comment lol, I understand I'm in the minority when it comes to that

[talentedcoin]

That's fair. Sometimes I think having a family just flips a bit in our brains -- like that whole Larry Niven thing about the Pak Protectors lol. And you're right, I was being a bit unfair about the noodles ;)

For myself I've always been a person of quiet habits. I love visiting the big city and taking in the vibrancy and life (museums! concerts!), but, boy oh boy, the older I get, the more I like to come back to my small/medium-sized city. But there are people who literally live in the middle of nowhere and seem to be just fine. Who knows? The world is mysterious and complex.

Thanks for the reply.

[bmd3991]

Agreed, having a family I think changes just about everything for a lot (most?) of people. Eh I started it by being dramatic with the blowing brains out joke :)

I can see where you're coming from, and most of my friends are the same way. They would never want to live in a place like NYC, it's just too crazy and they want their space. Not that that's your exact reasoning, but I get it for some people

[_qulr]

I agree with you. Madison is a great college town, and it's a great place to raise kids, but the social life for non-college adults without kids is... not ideal.

I've been trying to get out of here and move to a bigger city, but the pandemic put those plans on hold. (Madison is a pretty good place to hunker down now, or was before they re-opened the University.)

[hardwaregeek]

Honestly we see the hate because any opinion to the contrary is punching down. Downvote me all you like, but if a New Yorker says "Milwaukee/St Louis/Cleveland is worse than New York for these reasons" they get seen as elitist, coastal snobs. If the reverse happens and someone says "New York sucks for these reasons", nobody blinks an eye. When really, both options have their pros and cons. I'm not going to claim New York is always better, but I don't think we should assume Cleveland is the best either.

[bmd3991]

Good point. I don't know that this explains everything, but it would be silly to think that this isn't at least part of it

[jjav]

NYC is a wonderful place, I spent my 20s trying to find ways to afford living there but never could (so I lived across the river in NJ and spent all my time in Manhattan).

The compromises to live there full time are brutal though. You need to be content to live in what amounts to a closet anywhere else. No space for anything and you better have zero hobbies or interests that take more space than a laptop.

> Do that many people really want to have to get into their car and drive 25 minutes to the only (probably subpar) ramen shop in town.

This is a common misconception by big city dwellers, but stuff does exist outside as well!

I live in the outskirts of Silicon Valley in a town/village, of ~10K people surrounded by forest. And no I don't have to drive 25 minutes to get to a restaurant. I can walk to great sushi, thai, mexican, etc. I can walk to multiple supermarkets, pharmacies, everything pretty much. In fact other than for a few lumber yard runs I haven't really driven anywhere since March. Everything is walking distance. But at the same time I can have a yard, garages, space for woodworking and planting trees, ride a bike on quiet streets and forest trails and all that. And while silicon valley area is expensive, all this is still probably cheaper than a studio in NYC.

In a fantasy world where I'm ultra-rich, I would also have a NYC apartment to visit every now and then. It is a fun place.

[bb611]

> I can walk to multiple supermarkets, pharmacies, everything pretty much.

This is an essentially nonexistent characteristic of the kinds of places people are moving in the Midwest. The walkability of most of suburban America is ~0.

[ng12]

At a certain age a backyard for your kids to play in matters way more than being close to authentic ramen.

[bmd3991]

Yeah definitely a valid point. I understand (more or less) for people who want kids, I need to add that to my comment. Of course I can still see some benefit to raising kids in a place like NYC, but that's much more nuanced

[oramit]

My thought on this is that a lot of people were already anti-city for various reasons and the COVID shock has provided "proof" that their preference for non city living is best. A large amount of people seem to be unable to accept that others just prefer living in cities or the burbs or rural. I guess it's part of our social hard-wiring. We can't just accept that we like this thing, we also need to believe that it's the best, and denigrate others who choose a different path.

I miss my public transit commute, my gym, my soccer club, and being able to go out with friends and just come across stuff happening. COVID has actually made it more clear to me that I'm a city person.

[bmd3991]

True, I do think that's what's driving all of this negativity around cities. Maybe it's just a bunch of people who hated living in the city but were surrounded by people who liked it, but now they can finally come out with their true feelings. I'm in the same boat, COVID has cemented my feelings on the matter. I don't like that [some] people are celebrating the fall of big cities, because we already only have like 3 of them and some people actually like them

[war1025]

You adapt to where you live.

The fun things you do in the city are different from the fun things you do not in the city or in a different city.

You need to live somewhere for longer than a weekend to settle in and figure out what is noteworthy about an area.

[bmd3991]

Yeah, I mean it's fair that I haven't lived in every midwest city in America. But I've lived in 3 for multiple years each and I disliked them all for more or less the same reasons. Obviously it all just boils down to what you want out of life, so at a certain point it just becomes "agree to disagree"

[war1025]

People like different things is about what it boils down to.

I could give a care less about an authentic ramen shop, or really restaurants in general. Pre-pandemic, I ate out maybe once a month.

Coffee shops are another matter, but coffee is doing just fine around here.

[mensetmanusman]

If you want excitement, you can drive through parts of Chicago with bullet proof glass and experience a war zone.

[bmd3991]

ok granny ( just playin ;) )