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by DetroitThrow 2085 days ago
This is not interpretation - it is not ambiguous why the Committee of Five purposefully chose to downplay the function of government to specifically protect property rights - again, in explicit contrast to Locke's formulation of natural rights bearing "Life, Liberty, and Estate" - here's some further reading of their thoughts (including Madison's) that contradict this decontextualized misinformation:

"All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention." -Franklin

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s12....

"Private Property therefore is a Creature of Society, and is subject to the Calls of that Society, whenever its Necessities shall require it..."

https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch12s25...

"While it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from Nature at all … it is considered by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no one has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land … Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society." -Jefferson

https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/print_documents/v1c...

Even originally, Locke thought of the right to property more explicitly in terms of acquiring property more along the lines of the "pursuit of happiness" as evidenced by his Second Treatise, and Madison spoke in terms of that document as well:

https://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/CPP/FP_PS02w.pdf

Your quote from Locke supports their explicit and his implicit viewpoint here, and your other quotes are out of context of their primary sources which end up supporting their broader view of "Property" == "Pursuit of happiness".

1 comments

Your original statement was, ALL of the founding fathers viewed commerce and property as a function or construct of society, rather than a natural right in itself which is false.

You are quoting out of context to support a particular view.

For example the first you posted from Franklin continues:

"All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition."

It is the "Property superfluous to such purposes" that belongs to society. Your interpretation was contrary tp that, believing it to mean ALL property belongs to society. That is refuted by the very links you posted.

In Frankin's second quote, he stated his belief, rightly so, that he was hesitant to create an aristocracy based on property. He was arguing for a bicameral legislature and in the process admitted the rights of people to own property (the upper legislature composed of property owners).

Also, in Franklin's second quote, you quoted out of context. Immediately, prior to what you quoted, he spoke about property rights. We know, that, when one of them has attempted to keep a few Swine, he has not been able to maintain a Property in them, his neighbours thinking they have a Right to kill and eat them whenever they want Provision, it being one of their Maxims that hunting is free for all; the accumulation therefore of Property in such a Society, and its Security to Individuals in every Society, must be an Effect of the Protection afforded to it by the joint Strength of the Society, in the Execution of its Laws.. His argument is that the purpose of a society is to protect property rights.

I should clarify that there was universal agreement in regards to personal property rights, rather than private property rights. Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Hamilton, and Adams were adamant supporters of the idea of private property rights as a social construct. This is in contrast to the misinformation you were parroting which implied that property as a whole was intended to be protected absolutely by society - you seem to even agree that it is not, despite your original quotes implying the opposite.

However, I'm decontextualizing their quotes to support my view despite more precise context being included in the quotes I provided? The meaning of the second quote was not decontextualized and your emphasized component is addressed more precisely by "except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence" which was included in my comment: your analysis does not really add additional nuance where I was supposedly lacking, you're just repeating your original misinformation while bringing up their (related but tangential) ideas on government.

Even in this reply you seem not to delineate the nuance they were intending with their comments on social constructs vs natural rights - just additional context about how they intended to structure government around these ideas.

And next time should you want to spread misinformation without the decontextualizing the meaning of primary sources, include some links to the full text of the parroted quotes. There was certainly much more context provided in my instance that yours - which reeks of someone trying to misconstrue something for their viewpoint. Was Madison """impure""" because he didn't support your opinion exactly as you expected?