[takbw4234]

Daily reminder that any young female-driven competitive venture (fashion, sports, academics, acting in the movie industry) is filled to the brim with sexual predators: coaches, judges, trainers, consultants, marketers, agents and so on.

Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance. She doesn't need a gold medal or be world famous, she needs not to be raped

[seretogis]

The problem isn't the daughter pursuing their interests, the problem is those men being sexually predatory. The solution isn't to blame the victim and try to shelter them from "men will be men", it's to fix the cultural acceptance of sexually predatory behavior toward women.

[jacobwg]

I agree with what you're saying on all points, but there's a different parallel discussion around safety and situational awareness that I believe the OP was referring to.

Essentially, sexual predators looking to abuse children will go wherever the children are, be that schools, churches, athletics, social media, online games, and so on. Additionally, certain situations have power dynamics weighted heavily in the direction of the adults, for instance coaches, doctors, pastors, etc, and those dynamics make it far easier for abusers to avoid detection, avoid being reported if caught, and generally maintain their abuse.

Knowing those two facts makes it far easier to avoid abusive situations or properly handle them if they arise. This doesn't mean that you avoid all situations entirely, but a parent may choose to make judgement calls about certain situations, people, or activities based on those facts.

Again, I fully agree that the blame falls on the abusers and not the victims, but that's separate from being situationally aware.

[watwut]

Situational awareness the way you described it means a girl must avoid ambitions and competitive situation.

The issue with "properly handle them if they arise" is that ability to properly handle things strongly depends on whether complains are taken seriously (ideally long before it all escalates to high abuse) or not.

[jacobwg]

> Situational awareness [...] means a girl must avoid ambitions and competitive situation...

That's one judgement call to make, but not the only one. There are lots of different factors that could affect any given situation, but certain situations are safer than others, and there are ways to increase or decrease the safety of many given activities.

> [the] ability to properly handle things strongly depends on whether complains are taken seriously...

This is huge, and is actually a good example of how a parent might increase the safety of a situation - parents that are involved in their children's lives, are aware of what's going on, and, critically, believe their children if they communicate that something is uncomfortable or anything happened go a long way towards both deterrence and handling things that do happen. Child abusers generally gravitate towards opportunity, so obstacles in the way of that opportunity like an aware parent decrease the likelihood that abuse will happen with that child.

There's a ton of systemic problems with complaints being taken seriously though, in society at large, in institutions, and with all people, not just children.

[watwut]

I mean "Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance." honestly means that daughter needs to be stay at home mom.

Any just a bit ambitious position have older men in position to pressure. And low paid jobs are ripe for abuse like that, because employees have zero power. I dont mean to say that abuse is everywhere. But the above quote does not describe some kind of unusual rare situation. It is pretty much everywhere.

Also, the parents believing is not the only nor the most important people who needs to believe. The parents taking their daughter away are not making abuser go away. Abuser just moves on another target. That is not solving the problem, that is just shifting victims until one does not know how to talk about it or have to make hard choice or is otherwise unprotected.

The issue with these institutions typically are years of cover ups of evidence.

[throwaway31338]

I have genuine questions about how I am supposed to conduct myself in a culturally sensitive way about this issue. I have a daughter who knows nothing of sex yet. Eventually there are conversations that I expect will need to occur.

I sincerely don't want to "blame the victim". I also don't understand where that line falls. I've felt that accusing a speaker of "victim blaming" is sometimes used as a way to shout them down in a discussion (or worse, target them for being "canceled" in their life outside of Internet discourse-- hence my use of a throwaway account here).

I do not culturally accept sexually predatory behavior. It is wrong. It should be prosecuted. I do not have a "men will be men" attitude. I also accept that I can't change the culture of institutions myself, no matter how fiercely I believe what I believe.

- Am I "victim blaming" if I talk to my daughter about the existence of sexual predators and her vulnerability?

- Am I in the wrong if I caution her about institutions or settings that have historically adopted a "men will be men" attitude?

- Am I in the wrong if I explain the realpolitik that individuals' rejection of "men will be men" doesn't automatically change the entrenched attitudes of organizations that might systematically act to shield predators and ignore vitims?

- I've already had the conversation about how people are generally good, but that we have to be cautious because there are people with criminal motivations, or mental illness, that might cause them to want to hurt us in a general sense (non-sexual violence). Am I "victim blaming" if I talk to her about general situational awareness, being cautious, and not putting yourself into situations where general violence might occur?

[takbw4234]

> The solution (...) [i]s to fix the cultural acceptance of sexually predatory behavior toward women

No, sorry, you're taking the wrong angle here. There's no wide ranging cultural acceptance of sexually predatory behavior, that's why they're called sexual predators and not sex-positive mentors.

And they're attracted like flies to shit to positions of power in these kind of institutions. Please do shelter the victims if you can, and warn them all they're setting themselves up for this kind of abuse.

And yeah, jail the bastards who do act on it, of course. I might as well say that if that's not clear already. But there is a legion behind the ones that get caught vying for those spots for the very same reasons.

[falcolas]

> There's no wide ranging cultural acceptance of sexually predatory behavior

Were that the case, there wouldn't be these kinds of cases where entire swaths of predators are being shielded (or ignored). It may not be openly discussed or acknowledged, but as they say, actions speak louder than words.

And, fwiw, there are female sexual predators as well; best to not ignore them.

[Chris2048]

> actions speak louder than words

that doesn't really follow when those actions are explicitly hidden, or denied. If it was generally accepted, why would they need to hide?

The case being made here is one of indifference, and not just of sexual abuse, but any negative effects that don't directly benefit Varsity.

[falcolas]

The action I'm referring to here is the indifference. The hiding, the denial. Using the phrase "boys will be boys".

That's the action that's speaking out here. And it's a problem that's broader than Varsity.

[Chris2048]

But the indifference is on Varsities part, specifically; and it seems it was in a position to threaten anyone who knew about what it was hiding.

Who used the phrase "boys will be boys" in this situation?

[mcguire]

You don't consider indifference to be acceptance?

[Chris2048]

Maybe, but on Varsities part. OP talked about "wide ranging cultural acceptance" which I consider "societal".

A monopolist hiding behaviour from society doesn't sound like societal acceptance, it sounds like the opposite: hiding behaviour it knew isn't accepted.

[starkred]

> There's no wide ranging cultural acceptance of sexually predatory behavior

There is as long as the solution is "keep women away from sexual predators" instead of "keep sexual predators away from women". Keeping girls away from competitive sports is yet another example of "boys will be boys".

[bena]

The issue is you cannot tell me what a sexual predator looks like. Or, more disturbingly, you can. Because they look like you, they look like me, they look like everyone.

So a policy of "keep sexual predators away from children" just cannot work. That's a game you have to win every time. They just have to win once. One mistake and you've just allowed a predator access to children. And it's not like they'll stop.

And note, I say children, not women, because we aren't talking about the abuse of adults, we're talking about people sexually preying on children.

So I'm sorry. "Just stop criminals from committing crime" is a intellectually bankrupt argument.

The issue is that the problem is vast and multifaceted. We have to balance safety with allowing these children access to these things. And on some level, these children will have to become proactive members of their own safety. Whether we want them to be or not, they will have to be responsible to some degree.

And, no, it shouldn't be necessary. But we ultimately have to deal with the world as it is, not as it ought to be.

[blackbear_]

Nice word play, but what is a practical, pragmatic solution to achieve that?

[mcguire]

Actually investigate and prosecute reports rather than saying, "well, yeah, you shouldn't have been there."

Make it economically infeasible for companies like Varsity and their related organizations to ignore. And yes, you will get a lot of push back, using libertarian, freedom-related arguments.

[starkred]

Teach your damn boys for once.

[lefrenchy]

> Please do shelter the victims if you can, and warn them all they're setting themselves up for this kind of abuse.

Are you serious? You want to make victims feel responsible for being assaulted and taken advantage of? They must already feel an incredible sense of shame and guilt, the answer is absolutely not to tell them they are “setting themselves up” by pursuing their interests or passions..

[jtbayly]

No. We want to prevent them from becoming victims in the first place. Hence the word "warn" as opposed to the phrase "you had it coming."

[lefrenchy]

> warn them all they're setting themselves up for this kind of abuse

"Setting themselves up for this kind of abuse" has a very similar ring to "you had it coming".

People can be abused in so many different environments (sports, school, church, politics). We can't prevent them from participating in any of these things, and tell them they're "setting themselves up" if they do. That's absurd and will never serve to actually fix the root cause of the problem.

There are a host of cultural issues (over-sexualization, hyper masculinity, etc...) that contribute to the pervasiveness of abuse, and without addressing those we will never solve anything. We can also educate our children (or people more generally) on what is an is not acceptable behavior from people in those positions of power doing the abuse.

[hackeraccount]

I understand what you're getting at but surely there's a better solution. I don't want my daughter afraid to potentially be in that situation. I want her to be able to act in a way that would make me proud if she was.

I want her to be in a bad situation of any sort even less than I'd like myself to be in one but I'm not going act unreasonably cautious at the expense of something wonderful. I don't want her to do that either.

[GeoAtreides]

Regarding sports: If it's not sexual predators, it's just plain old emotional and physical abuse. Sending your daughter to gymnastics means condemning her to abuse of all kinds.

For example:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-53509107

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/sports/olympics/gymnastic...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/300071427/an-insidious-culture...

https://theconversation.com/winning-at-all-costs-how-abuse-i...

[falcolas]

If you want to scream in frustration, watch a video about the "training" involved in stretching legs so kids can do the splits. They're regularly posted to YouTube by proud parents.

I have no clue how a parent can "proudly" watch their child crying and screaming as someone forces their legs into unnatural positions.

[dehrmann]

Not to justify it, and I don't have an answer, but won't most sufficiently competitive activities devolve to this in an arms race?

[GeoAtreides]

This is exactly where my thoughts converged, too. The abuse is baked in. It seems to me that some people are wired to do anything, absolutely anything, to win. It's fine when adults are making the choice for themselves, it's abhorrent and wrong when the adults are choosing it for children.

[starkred]

Are you seriously suggesting that we keep our daughters out of fashion, academics, sports, and movies as that is the only way to keep them from being raped?

> Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance

Are you also suggesting that we don't let her work at a FAANG company? Many of us are 'pressured' by older men to advance, if you extend 'pressured' to mean 'doing the job that you've been hired for.

[takbw4234]

> Are you seriously suggesting that we keep our daughters out of fashion, academics, sports, and movies as that is the only way to keep them from being raped?

I'm suggesting you should outright tell them that it's very likely that at some point some guy will try to demand sex from her and strongly suggest that she should GTFO and call you and/or the police asap in that case. She will not only be protecting herself but all other potential victims and that's worth more than any prize she could get.

btw, as someone else said: this also happens (a lot more than acknowledged) with boys and older (wo)men. It's apparently less common, though.

> Are you also suggesting that we don't let her work at a FAANG company?

Tell her it's OK to work somewhere else if the only way to get there is to fuck the interviewer. But somehow I imagine that's not the only way to get a job there. Also, call the police etc.

> Many of us are 'pressured' by older men to advance, if you extend 'pressured' to mean 'doing the job that you've been hired for.

What?

[starkred]

> Tell her it's OK to work somewhere else if the only way to get there is to fuck the interviewer

Tell her that if that happens then she is strong enough to report it until something is done about it. Don't give in to bullies.

[starkred]

> I'm suggesting you should outright tell them that it's very likely that at some point some guy will try to demand sex from her

If I had heard that growing up I would have avoided men under any and all circumstances. Since I am posting here, you might imagine what a detrimental effect that would have had on my life.

Seriously, all you are going to teach young women is that the world is a terrifying place and they should hide themselves from it. I don't think you can imagine how awful that advice is. I easily can.

Re my last statement. If you told everyone of either gender that they should avoid situations where they have to rely on older men for their advancement, no one would have any job.

[mcguire]

I agree. Sharia law traditions have a number of advantages.

However, I think the costs outweigh whatever benefits exist.

[watwut]

"Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance"

The only way to achieve this is to not have ambitions and not try to be competitive. And even then you are not sure, because she still want some job.

I dont think it is good overall solution.

[names_are_hard]

Well I think that at least in some cases there are other options, though I'm not sure how realistic they are in modern society. Where I grew up it would be considered highly inappropriate for a man to coach girls sports. It was taken as a matter of course that girls should be coached and supervised by women.

This attitude comes with other side effects that might not be desirable, and it doesn't do much to prevent the rape of young boys. Still, there is a partial mitigation here if you want your daughter to be able to compete without having the gatekeeper be a man.

As an aside, I am vaguely aware that cheerleading is considered a legitimate competitive sport, but my only exposure to it is from NBA and NFL, where it seems to me a rather ridiculously sexualized objectification of women. I love watching football but I wish they got rid of the cheerleaders. And if I had a daughter, I'd rather she take up a sport like football or basketball or soccer or motorcycle racing than join a cheerleading squad. I acknowledge that my biases here might be way off base. Please show me where I'm wrong, I'd like to understand what I'm missing. Why are people in the west in with this?

[gamblor956]

Up to college, cheerleading is a serious sport (see, e.g., the Netflix docudrama or even the old movie Bring it On which is surprisingly accurate).

It is one of the most physically demanding sports, and in terms of injuries it is the most hazardous sport for competitive athletes. It's basically gymnastics, but faster, with a dozen or more other people within the same limited space, and people are getting tossed around or jumping off other people, or balancing on top of one or more other people who may themselves be balanced on top of other people.

[opwieurposiu]

My daughter is only two, not sure what I will do when the time comes to discuss this stuff. I need some way to make her understand that her sexuality is a valuable thing, and she should demand a high price for it. Ideally a marriage and a house.

[falcolas]

By putting a price on her sexuality, you'll be harming her as much as any other rando who offers to pay her for the same.

EDIT: this has been on my mind, and perhaps it deserves more commentary.

By putting a price on her sexuality, it establishes the precedent that her body and her intimacy are commodities to be sold. That if someone comes along with the right price (a bag of candy, $1000, a promise of protection), it's OK - if not expected - that she takes the payment in exchange for her body.

[opwieurposiu]

How do you explain to a child that something is valuable but should not have a price? I am worried "love is free" is dangerously adjacent to "sex is cheap", the opposite of what I want to convey. Maybe the "price" in this analogy is time or commitment? Avoid the whole market comparison? Open to suggestions here.

[falcolas]

That her sexuality is hers, and hers alone. It's hers to do with as she wishes.

That nobody - whether they be friends, family, or strangers - is entitled to her sexuality.

That it's priceless - it's not something that can be sold (or held for randsom), no matter the price.

Even in marriage, it's still hers. She can always say no, no matter how pretty the house, how rich the husband.

And just as importantly - though perhaps after puberty has started - that because it's her sexuality, she's also allowed to say yes. Because if she can't say yes, it's not hers.

Also, support her. No matter her choices, or what is forced upon her, support her through everything. Even if it was her choice, and she now regrets it, and it pisses you off to no end, support her.

That's my opinion, and what I do.

[opwieurposiu]

Thank you for your compassionate comment. It always helps me to think about these things in writing. I can see a lot of merit in your ideas.

[jtbayly]

You'd rather devalue? Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value.

[falcolas]

It's not a commodity that can be bought or sold. It's hers, no matter how much (or how little) someone pays.

> Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value.

This is a rather chilling position to try and argue for.

[jtbayly]

Exactly. That’s why I’m flabbergasted that you are arguing for pretending as though it has no value.

If it’s hers...

and if it is valuable...

or even if just her ability to choose what to do with it is valuable (ie letting her choose how much to value it)...

then it is appropriate to teach her how to protect it.

If it is inappropriate to teach her how to protect it (because some feminist somewhere declared by fiat that it would be victim blaming to do so), then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that it has no value. She must never be taught to value it. She must never be taught to protect it. And thus, her choice is made for her: it has no value, and as long as those exist who choose to take it by force, her desire is meaningless. Society has decided she may not value it out lest other people have their feelings hurt because they lost theirs.

[falcolas]

There's a difference between value and price. The parent was putting a price on her sexuality (marriage and a house). I'm saying that you shouldn't put any price on it.

A thing isn't valuable just because it has a price; and conversely something valuable doesn't need to have a price.

[xiaolingxiao]

Very true, saw this first hand in a school of all places

[just-juan-post]

> Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance. She doesn't need a gold medal or be world famous, she needs not to be raped

No school. No work. No going to stores because you know the nasty shopkeep might be tempted to give her a discount for a blowjob.

Which nunnery will you be putting your child in?