[yokto]

Do you want to "speak consciously" on WeChat or risk facing the consequences of your "responsibility" in front a Chinese Communist Party court?

The very same tools that can enable your utopia can also very quickly turn into a dystopia. As you say, they are a powerful magnifier, transforming this world into a global village where every action has far-reaching unpredictable consequences. This means that we should be incredibly cautious when deploying these tools as they give great power to users and an even greater power to their makers.

[browserface]

No I think you still don't get it.

Speaking consciously on WeChat means being conscious of all the consequences of your actions including with regard to your relationship as an individual to the state. I'm very happy to adopt that consciously, and have tried to be aware of these things and I have no problem with that at all.

Just like I'm not going to say something to hurt the feelings of and make trouble for the family that's invited me to have dinner at their house, I'm not going to say things to hurt the feelings of a whole people, and double so when I'm a guest. And I'll try considering the unique culture of a place and how appropriate types of criticism, before opening my mouth. And triple so when I'm a guest with a megaphone.

Would you?

I consider doing it in a less considerate way is not very empathetic but also it's not good for me. It's self-destructive so I think people adopting this attitude under some misguided sort of heroic mythology are, stupid.

I'm okay speaking in more critical terms about countries where open criticism of their systems is culture. But even then there are lines. Assange, Snowden, went too far. To me, ignoring for a second the possibility they are limited hangout psyops, they are stupid men. Useful idiots, whose idealism, whether initially designed or not, had been co-opted by the states they posture at critiquing.

And then other countries are a different set of sensitivities again. Being conscious of that is good for everyone i think.

But the unexpected benefit of this for me was I actually got a deeper understanding of different places unique ways and thinking, precisely because I deliberately withheld judgement and tried to look at things from multiple perspectives, not just from my inherited Western biases, which I consciously tried to be aware of and see more than.

So you're judging WeChat but what gives you the right?

I don't think it's very empathetic for people to say, well Western culture do it this way therefore we should impose our cultural values on others.

But... these sort of one-sided culture v culture attacks open you up to a whole lot of interesting counter criticism such as: the credit score, "stasi files", and criminal history checks you have in Western countries basically equate to the social credit system in China, when you think about job opportunities, freedom of movement, access to capital, freedom from harassment and intimidation.

For me, I admire the Chinese transparency about what it is and technological efficiency. I believe such openness makes it easier for people to deal with and is the way forward long term. Whereas the covert harassment and secret tracking and "free press" propaganda in the West, under the guise of a "free and open society" I believe tips the scales of power less in the individual's favor, engages in needless deception, and is a more abusive aspect of the state-individual relationship than I think works.

I don't understand what people find so difficult about the level of consideration that is just like, I don't have all the answers, I'm not perfect, who am I to judge others? but I think in the West it harkens back to some sort of anti authoritarian distrust of the state.

Did you mean deploying the communications tools? That's an interesting if Luddite take: We should fold back to isolation because we're not ready. In essence I agree, to a degree, but I think that siloing is already handled and taken care of by various state and regional level blocks to some extent.

If you meant or were trying to confuse it deliberately with the survey tools then they are not what makes the world a village. They just enhance the watchers.

I agree we need to watch for dystopias and avoid them, but are you really so sure that China is, or is becoming one, while being so sure the West is not?

I think we need to watch, and learn from both places. Neither is a dystopia right now. But neither is perfect either. What's important is to learn, improve, and not think you've already achieved the pinnacle of civilization, nor take it for granted that you'll get there. You have to keep learning from what others are doing and inventing improvements. I just don't think framing the debate as privacy versus almost everything else is a very useful way forward.

I'm with Zuckerberg on this one even though it's kind of hackneyed. The world really should get more open and connected and I think eventually the relationship between people and their states should become closer. In my intimate relationships I get privacy by what I choose not to disclose. In my relationship with states I get privacy by what I choose to only think or feel. There's still a lot there... I think with the externalization of minds onto devices people are forgetting the power of their own brain and their own emotions.

What might be scary for me is if the entire world has one standard of acceptable ideas and acceptable behavior. I might feel restricted in that case because there'd be no country I could go to that was more conducive... so I think that any world government has to be widely tolerant of many things. But then again maybe I'm wrong and if I was in that situation I'd probably just make the best of it and think well what can I still enjoy and how can I adopt myself to fit in with where I'm at. But I think the reality is that when world Government comes it will be something that is tolerant of regional differences because that will be how a world government has to be introduced that's the only sort of way it's possible.

[yokto]

I wasn't expecting such a long answer, but thank you for it because it is a rather unique point of view in my filter bubble.

First, yes the difference between survey tools and communication tools is always confusing for me in the privacy debate. But ultimately, they are deeply linked [2] with many cases that fall in between. In particular, the surveillance of communication tools is incredibly pervasive.

> double so when I'm a guest

Yes, when I was in China, I was more careful to approach discussions with an open mind and cautiousness for the legal repercussions. However, I'm not talking about being a guest, I'm talking about either being a citizen or an outsider. In both cases I think it's very important to think critically and express the potentially resulting criticism. (More below)

> So you're judging WeChat but what gives you the right?

Certainly not the CCP, lol. But seriously, more than WeChat/Tencent, which is just another interesting tech company, I'm judging the state control over it. And more than judging (but which I'm also doing), I'm formulating criticism based on observations of harm to people (I consider it evident that shutting up would be immoral) and (but this is our main point of disagreement) mind control by the state.

> Assange, Snowden, went too far.

It seems your threshold might be the word of law, but in that case they exposed illicit state actions. In any case, they did go far. To say they were co-opted is only partly true if not outright false: thanks to them, a significant portion of the population is defending itself and pushing for more scrutiny and changes.

> And then other countries are a different set of sensitivities again. Being conscious of that is good for everyone i think.

States and governments do not have sensitivities. You can not hurt their feelings.

> these sort of one-sided culture v culture attacks open you up to a whole lot of interesting counter criticism such as: the credit score, "stasi files", and criminal history checks

I'm using the nazi culture as an experience that enables me to construct criticism of other cultures. Whenever I see something that looks like it, I'm indeed judging it very much.

And yes, credit scores and criminal problems have their own problems, thank you for helpful criticism/judging/insert the word you prefer. You absolutely have the "right" to say it thanks to the millions of people who fought for freedom against kings, tyrannies, authoritarian states and even normal governments. But beyond what the current laws say, the fact that you have functioning brain is enough to justify judging. How and when you express that judgement should reflect the potential negative and positive consequences of that. Here I think that in the long term, censorship has more negative effects than offending, and call me insensitive, but I think that people (including myself) should really get better at receiving criticism and society would be overall better for it.

> Did you mean deploying the communications tools? That's an interesting if Luddite take: We should fold back to isolation because we're not ready. In essence I agree, to a degree, but I think that siloing is already handled and taken care of by various state and regional level blocks to some extent.

Yes, these tools, and I did not say "fold back to isolation", but to be cautious when expanding the existing relative isolation, because we can not foresee all the consequences of doing that. See the increase in mental health problems linked to the use of social networks for example. This, other issues like [1] and higher-level thinking like this very good talk on surveillance capitalism [2] makes me think that no, this is not "already handled and taken care of".

> you really so sure that China is, or is becoming one, while being so sure the West is not?

Nope, absolutely not. We need to watch both and the West has its fair share of issues, see [2] for one of the many examples. However, I do think that China is closer : more outright lies from the government, concentration camps for Uiguhrs and muslims, press controlled and manipulated by the state, systemic censorship, disappearing journalists and whistle-blowers, etc. You can find examples of this in the US (except for concentration camps I guess), but they will be rarer and more subtle, mostly because the system was designed to distribute power more evenly and minimize potential for harm. Which beautifully comes back to my first point: giving more power/communication tools to individuals should not be taken lightly.

> For me, I admire the Chinese transparency about what it is and technological efficiency. I believe such openness makes it easier for people to deal with and is the way forward long term. Whereas the covert harassment and secret tracking and "free press" propaganda in the West, under the guise of a "free and open society" I believe tips the scales of power less in the individual's favor, engages in needless deception, and is a more abusive aspect of the state-individual relationship than I think works.

I really see that point and myself I can not help but admire some of these aspects of China. However, systematic censorship of alternative views is one of the many other things China is not open about. The reason tracking is "secret" in the west is precisely because the individuals have more power, so saying it tips the scale doesn't really make sense. And because we have more power, we can work towards abolishing it. So if we think it's bad, we should. You aren't explaining why surveillance is good (see [2] on why it's bad), but you are essentially saying we should embrace it and it's not a big deal if we impose it on everyone.

> In my relationship with states I get privacy by what I choose to only think or feel. [..] What might be scary for me is if the entire world has one standard of acceptable ideas and acceptable behavior. I might feel restricted in that case because there'd be no country I could go to that was more conducive... so I think that any world government has to be widely tolerant of many things.

I encourage you to watch the german movie The Lives of Others (2006) for a closer look at what privacy and surveillance mean in an authoritarian state. You can not "change countries": there was a wall in Berlin where people were shot on sight. You start by arguing for more respect and consciousness towards different cultures and ended by saying that it's okay for states to choose what you think and discriminate for thinking differently, because that is what the sentence "In my relationship with states I get privacy by what I choose to only think or feel" means. Restricting speech restricts what you can hear which restricts what you can think.

[1] https://medium.com/@monteiro/designs-lost-generation-ac72895... > "Bobbi Duncan was “accidentally” outed by Facebook when she was a college freshman. When Bobbi got to college she joined a queer organization with a Facebook group page. When the chorus director added her to the group, a notification that she’d joined The Queer Chorus at UT-Austin was added to her feed. Where her parents saw it. Bobbi had very meticulously made her way through Facebook’s byzantine privacy settings to make sure nothing about her sexuality was visible to her parents. But unbeknownst to her (and the vast majority of their users), Facebook, which moves fast, had made a decision that group privacy settings should override personal privacy settings. Bobbi was disowned by her parents and later attempted suicide. They broke things." I recommend the entire article, it's completely opposite to your point of view and makes a good case in favor of individual discernment followed by actions.

[2] The Rise of Surveillance Capitalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s4Y-uZG5zk

[3] Documentary on Uiguhrs "thought transformation camps" https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/087898-000-A/china-uyghurs-in-...

[browsergrip]

This is good but it's a bit too long for me to reply here, plus HN is saying my other account is posting too fast. I'd like to write something longer form addressing what you say because I think it's interesting. do you have a blog or an email that I could post it to you in reply? You can hit me up on WeChat/Gmail: cris7fe :) or just say here

[yokto]

I've sent you an email, let me if you didn't get it or reply here :) Looking forward to reading your thoughts