[seanhandley]

I'm noticing at our company those who are married and/or have kids seem to prefer remote working and those who miss the office tend to live alone.

There are obviously many factors that can affect a person's happiness and it's always good to hear people's perspectives. Why do you find it miserable?

[bobthepanda]

As a childless person with a roommate, the current WFH situation has been not ideal.

I live in an apartment complex that normally features amenities and is located in a neighborhood with lots of shops, cafes, bars, gyms, etc. All of the third places are currently closed or under very heavy restrictions (e.g. in Seattle you can only dine indoors with members of your household), so now I'm stuck in a two-bedroom apartment. I can still go for walks but it's not quite the same.

There's also the issue of everybody else. On paper, I have gig internet. In practice, I don't think the fiber here was designed for everyone to be simultaneously working from home. And especially with kids staying at home instead of using up their energy at school or at the playground, apartment noise has become more significant.

Work from home would probably be nicer under less strenuous circumstances. Working from home or a coffee shop of your own volition is one thing, working from home because you have to is another. I'm onboarding to a new team and personally I've found it difficult to get the quick 30-second validation I need to see if I'm setting things up right or have the right assumptions, because it very easily snowballs into setting up formal meetings.

[devmunchies]

I'm the opposite. Married with 2 kids, but I had to rent a private office 10 minutes from home so I could focus.

I was setting a bad precedent for my sons when they would try to talk to me and I'd say "I'm working. not right now." Then it becomes ambiguous whether they can talk to me or not. Not good for kids IMO.

Now when I come home i get the biggest hugs you've ever seen and we start playing.

[colordrops]

> they would try to talk to me and I'd say "I'm working. not right now." Then it becomes ambiguous whether they can talk to me or not. Not good for kids IMO.

Ugh, I do this all the time and didn't think about how bad it is. A gut punch, but glad I'm now conscious of it.

[dougmwne]

I'm honestly not sure why that's a gut punch? I grew up with a work from home parent. There was nothing particularly confusing about it and if anything, it taught me to respect the attention-space of others from an early age. Make sure to set up consistent visual signals of what working looks like such as a closed door and be consistent in explaining that you're in your work-zone. When work is done, then be present to your family and leave the laptop in the home office.

[srtjstjsj]

Some people feel the need to baby children when they are nearby, but are comfortable ignoring then when they are away, instead of actually being their all day or teaching the child a balance including self-reliance.

[devmunchies]

A very holier-than-thou, assuming comment.

Just because I go to an office doesn’t mean I baby them or don’t teach self-reliance.

> instead of actually being there all day

Most parents aren’t present, even if they are in the same room.

[spdionis]

> A very holier-than-thou, assuming comment

> Most parents aren’t present, even if they are in the same room

Seems like you're probably not aware of the irony.

[jxramos]

Exactly, I was thinking about how a visual sign could communicate the idea well. I have to work from my living room shared with a bunch of other individuals at home. It gets pretty nutty at times. I might repurpose some old desk nick-knack thing to be my now-working sign post.

[dougmwne]

That's a good idea. Maybe a desk lamp that gets turned on? Think about how you dress as well. Clothing is an excellent signaler. Consider rearranging the furniture to create a barrier between your desk and the rest of the room. Those folding standup room dividers are like $100 on Amazon in a variety of styles and you can hide it in the closet after hours if you are short on room.

[jxramos]

Yah, that's what we wound up doing spontaneously today when something spilled in the kitchen this morning. We have a kitchen island on wheels, I wound up rolling it out of the kitchen out of the way and wound up just continuing on over and creating a side wing/short wall next to my seat and keyboard tray. So far so good.

[seanhandley]

I use a remote-controlled LED light so it goes red like a recording studio. They're really inexpensive to buy online.

[Xcelerate]

I’m on paternity leave right now with my first kid. I worked a little bit before taking the leave and that was all the time I needed to determine that having a separate “office” is a must. We’re moving away from the Bay Area to be closer to family, and I’m seriously thinking about purchasing a cheap ($40-$60k) hut/cottage with a pretty view about ten minutes away from wherever home ends up being. I’ll set up a desk, couch, espresso machine, and treat that as “work”.

[rayhendricks]

Must be very affordable real estate where you live. There’s also something like this for a backyard office https://www.costco.com/installed-sheds-by-studio-shed---bore...

[srtjstjsj]

That's a local-only webpage for your ZIP code.

Here's the main page: https://www.studio-shed.com/products/signature-series/shed-t...

[Xcelerate]

We haven’t moved yet but are thinking about rural North Carolina. Haven’t looked at prices for small plots of land, so maybe I’m off a bit.

I’ve considered an office shed too, but I’m a bit worried that’s still a little too close haha.

[devmunchies]

$24k! Would that increase the real estate value?

I pay $400/mo (all inclusive /w internet) for my little office. That would take me 5 years to recoup at my current rate.

I got my company to pay for it though so its technically free.

[solipsism]

I was setting a bad precedent for my sons when they would try to talk to me and I'd say "I'm working. not right now." Then it becomes ambiguous whether they can talk to me or not. Not good for kids IMO.

No doors? Seems like there are many ways you could make the signal less ambiguous.

[taneq]

Yeah, this is a setup issue, not a work-from-home issue. If possible a separate office with closable door is ideal, then just be really strict that when your office door is closed, you're at work and not to be disturbed. It took me a few months to train my family to respect this but they're pretty good about it now.

[deathanatos]

…income to real estate / rental prices in many of the metropolitan areas mean many of us do not have a separate room.

[jlokier]

Doors - that would imply a room.

So many people are working at a kitchen table right now or similar. I.e. in a communal area, due to lack of spare rooms to make into an office.

Imagine two adults trying to work at a kitchen/dining room table all day with children around.

[bart_spoon]

Well in that case the problem isn't "working from home", its "working from this particular home which isn't setup in any way for success". Its not reasonable to expect everyone to have a living situation setup to accommodate working from home given the way the current situation was thrust upon them, but its just an unreasonable to judge the efficacy of working from home based on those same people's experiences. Its equivalent to removing all the desks and furniture from an office and then basing your assessment on the ensuing disaster.

[ksk]

As you alluded to, if you only judge something in its most optimal setting, then of course that thing seems very workable and successful. There are very few objective truths when it comes to WFH policies; there are only compromises that people are willing to make/accept. People always seem to make it about one-size-fits-all X is Good Y is Bad.

[TylerE]

How about something like one of those flippable "open/closed" signs on your office door?

[pmiller2]

That's interesting. I also find it pretty miserable, mostly due to the isolation. I kind of feel like a microservice that takes JIRA tickets as input and outputs code these days.

My home office is great: nice desk, chair, good lighting, extra monitor, more than enough space. The literal work facilities are certainly better here for me than at the office. I just miss seeing coworkers, and I even miss my train ride a bit (that used to be my reading time).

And, yes, I live by myself (with my dog, fortunately).

[civilized]

I'm married with kids and, pandemic or no, I perpetually feel like a microservice that receives child demands and outputs dining and entertainment services.

[Roritharr]

Perfectly described. Had a good laugh, thanks from someone in your situation.

[ALittleLight]

>I kind of feel like a microservice that takes JIRA tickets as input and outputs code

Dream job in my opinion. I personally hate interacting with coworkers and meetings.

[solipsism]

Yep. Just like I don't want my life insurance to be dependent on my job, I also don't want my social life to be. It's not healthy, it works in favor of the employer by making people more attached to their jobs, and we shouldn't optimize for it.

[Consultant32452]

I'm sorry this is happening to you. This isn't what remote work is really like. Before covid you could easily make the rounds to a few local cafes to work at from time to time and also you could hang out with friends after work. All of that was taken away at once and we won't fully understand the mental health ramifications for years, if ever.

[tikhonj]

> I kind of feel like a microservice that takes JIRA tickets as input and outputs code these days.

That sounds like a symptom of a deeper problem—insufficient autonomy? no "seat at the table"?—that is, at most, being exacerbated by remote work. What specifically about your culture makes you feel this way? What makes you feel this way more now than previously?

[pmiller2]

Well, that wasn't a literal description of my job. I was exaggerating a bit for effect, to emphasize the isolation bit.

Like many of us, I have wide latitude in exactly how I go about meeting the requirements of the project I'm on, and I have some amount of freedom in choosing those projects. My manager is not looking over my shoulder at how many LOC I commit.

What's causing me to feel this way is a combination of isolation, every fucking thing that's happened in 2020, and my deteriorating mental health as a result. I may not last another year in a remote work + COVID environment.

[solipsism]

This seems to be lumping a lot of things into remote work that really shouldn't be. There is universal isolation now, for most of us. But post-COVID you presumably won't be so isolated, even if you were working from home.

[BossingAround]

> I kind of feel like a microservice that takes JIRA tickets as input and outputs code these days.

What made it feel any different in the past?

[karmasimida]

Actually not my experience.

My married friends complain more about WFH than otherwise. I think it depends on how many kids you have, and how big your house is.

[nostromo]

Same. My coworkers who have young children at home seem pretty miserable.

I have a coworker that I haven't seen for weeks now because of their new part-time job as a homeschool teacher.

Childless couples and single people seem pretty happy with their new free time, even if they’d eventually like to return to the office.

[bart_spoon]

Agreed. I personally have a setup where:

- my spouse is stay at home, and therefore is supervising the kids while I work - I have a study/office at home that allows me to close the door if necessary - more of my daily time is spent programming than in meetings or interacting with people

If any one of those things wasn't true, I too would probably be struggling more with the WFH situation. As it stands, its a massive improvement as I can still work effectively, the lack of commute means I have more time for seeing my family, and the flexibility of my daily schedule now allows me to do things like take a break to hang out or have lunch with my kids.

[scarface74]

This is not what working from home is normally like for parents with kids. In normal times, you would still have the kids in school/daycare or have a real stay at home spouse.

[visarga]

> those who are married and/or have kids seem to prefer remote working and those who miss the office tend to live alone

I would have thought to be the other way around - parents miss office as they have to supervise and educate their kids while also doing their regular job.

[Polylactic_acid]

What it seems to be is that people prefer having people around for part of the day but not in their way while working. People with families but no office to get away from everyone struggle and people alone 24/7 struggle.

Personally I live with 4 other family members but have a dedicated room with a dual monitor setup so I find this to be ideal.

[seibelj]

We have family watching the kids during the day, and if we didn't we would hire help. But even with help, it's just easier not having to commute, being able to do laundry / chores / etc. while taking meetings, etc. I am more productive overall.

[rayiner]

Yes, this! Plus, you can shift your schedule around to do childcare in the morning and evening with work in-between.

[throwaway1777]

Opposite experience, the ones with kids need some other space where they can concentrate.

[bobthepanda]

Presumably once schools open again this is less of an issue for ~9 months of the year, right?

[tehlike]

Depends on the age of kid :) schools are already open but bay area in particular most schools are still doing remote education. Families voted it that way.

[nradov]

That's not quite what happened. Parents were asked to pick between a full year of distance learning or a hybrid option with partial classroom time. However most county education departments are still forcing classrooms to stay closed, so everyone is still on distance learning regardless of how they voted.

[X-Istence]

I live alone, and I really prefer working from home. I get to set up my own environment, and the lack of distractions is amazing for my productivity.

[civilized]

This 100%. If you're married with children, you most likely have less than zero need for an office-based social life.

[seibelj]

When I was younger I would have been less happy, but I was lucky enough to grow up near Boston, went to school in Boston, and have a software career in Boston, so all of my friends and family live around here and I never needed work to have a social life.

TBQH I think a lot of young people no longer know how to make friends outside of the rigid structures of school and work. All of the old structures of church and community fell without something to take its place, and for whatever reason it's progressive to discount prioritizing traditional values like family over career. If I hadn't grown up in Boston I probably would have stuck around where ever my family was located. I think the pandemic is forcing people to analyze their own lives and many are discovering things they don't like about themselves and their choices. Hanging out on social media all day is unhealthy and is not a replacement for true friends and family.

[klipt]

> All of the old structures of church and community fell without something to take its place, and for whatever reason it's progressive to discount prioritizing traditional values like family over career.

The economy grows faster when people sacrifice their personal lives for work.

Not saying I like it, but it seems obvious why incentives are aligned that way.

[jlokier]

Perhaps in the short term.

It's not obvious in the longer term. Economic growth, which is affected by technological and scientific advancement (among many other things), depends on insight and creativity, not just hard work.

Maybe the economy grows more in the longer term if the people working in it were raised as healthy, happy children in more of a "family values" sort of situation.

[jlokier]

To clarify, I don't intend my comment to be read as suggesting "family values" automatically results in healthier, happier children or is superior in some way. Especially not "traditional" family values.

(Personally I hold much more of a progressive, pro-LGBT+-visibility, love-and-let-love type of position than what are sometimes called traditional family values.)

Rather, I want to suggest that long term economic growth almost certainly depends in some way not just on people sacrificing their personal lives for work now; but also qualities that future generations grow up with, i.e. how children are raised, schooled, looked after, the attitudes they are surrounded by and so on.

I'm not informed enough to know how personal life in the present affects multi-generational economic growth. But I'm sure it has an effect, and that everyone maximising work in the present at the cost of personal life is almost certainly not the path to maximum collective prosperity as measured by economic growth in the long term.

[bart_spoon]

I think you bring up an important point that may be an uncomfortable truth about modern society. I personally have been weathering the pandemic/WFH situation well, in no small part because my spouse is a stay-at-home parent anyways. I don't need to juggle work and monitoring children much because they are available to do so. If anything, its been a boon to be able to "tag-team" occasionally, to give my wife a break/back her up, and also be a presence in my kids life more than just after work hours and on weekends.

For many friends and colleagues with children, however, its been a disaster, and it seems the largest culprit is that they both work, and therefore they struggle to do their jobs while also watch their children all day. I don't blame them for their situation. Society has made it so that having a stay at home parent is a luxury that many families simply can't afford, and it has also devalued the idea so much that even the families that can afford it are almost embarrassed to do so (my wife personally likes being a stay at home mom, but feels judgement from friends and former colleagues for quitting her job as a chemist to do so). Its good that we moved beyond expecting women to exclusively be the homemakers, as that is needlessly sexist, but it would have been far more healthy to replace that with normalizing one parent, gender-agnostic, devoted to child-care, rather than normalizing both parents working and relying on daycare/schooling to watch kids for most of the day.

[srtjstjsj]

Some people like to have friends, not just family.

[dzhiurgis]

IMHO biggest variable is company itself. If it’s not setup as remote & distributed-first, then you going to suffer. Same with what you actually do. Developing a product is much easier alone than a service in a consulting company.