[noodlesoups]

It's not like e2e is heavily utilized must-have for crime either. Tons of crime happen through regular unencrypted text messages, and nobody gets caught. But this isn't about protecting in the first place, so it isn't all that relevant.

[kspacewalk2]

e2e is a heavily utilized must-have for any organized crime these days, and this is very frequently a wall that law enforcement hit and cannot get past.

I don't think banning encryption or something silly like that is therefore the solution, but minimizing the problem is not helpful in understanding why there's such a heavy push from all sorts governments, democratic and authoritarian alike, to "deal" with the problem. It's not always because they are Teh Evil Surveillance Statez who want to Take Your Freedom for the sake of Total Control. It's because they are faced with a serious actual real problem of criminals using a technology they barely understand and cannot get past, and so they instinctively reach for the trusty hammer they are so accustomed to using against all serious problems - the Legislative Ban.

They don't understand that using this hammer will have significant unintended consequences, but this isn't malevolence. It's fear and lack of competence.

[noodlesoups]

>but this isn't malevolence. It's fear and lack of competence.

I'm not sure which is worse. We absolutely need people with the expertise in the area to make these kinds of decision. It's like giving a gardener the position to launch nukes. I'm sure they're very capable at trimming bushes, but that isn't exactly useful here.

e2e is really not a must-have in crime. It's a nice-to-have, but people can and often do very well without it. If we aren't capable of catching the lowest hanging fruit, how is this even of any use? At the same time we're not giving out the right signal about the state of surveillance already in place by not utilizing it to it's maximum potential.

Power corrupts, and the effects can be seen all over. Imagine what absolute power does

[kspacewalk2]

Any self-respecting drug cartel and terrorist organization has been using modern encryption at all levels, from street to the top, for more than a decade now. What criminals would not be using an e2e chat app nowadays? Truly the lowest hanging fruit, and no fruit above that. The barrier of entry to using a level of encryption that's beyond the capabilities of most law enforcement agencies to snoop on was equivalent to finding a decent software/IT guy in 2010. It's non-existent in 2020. Just open the app store.

This pretty much solves a very serious problem for all illicit activity - secure communications. It's strange to argue that this ought to have no impact on the ability of law enforcement to combat organized crime or terrorism because they should just compensate elsewhere. That's waiving a problem away instead of facing up to it. Of course it's having a big impact, and telling them 'just be better elsewhere' is not gonna work, they'll still push for stupid legislation.

[noodlesoups]

>Any self-respecting drug cartel and terrorist organization has been using modern encryption at all levels

There are plenty of organizations who by this logic don't. However they don't dissappear, even though we already have the tools available. If they're not capable of using the tools they have, why are they reaching for something substantially harder to do? There must be something else to it if they're not bothering to do what they can.

> It's strange to argue that this ought to have no impact on the ability of law enforcement to combat organized crime

Of course power grants you that, it grants you absolutely anything you want, just like setting a fire gets rid of the rodents in your house, along with the house. That is exactly why absolute power is not to be assigned to any single organization, it can't be contained.

There is also the expectation like anyone using encryption for malicious purposes wouldn't do it regardless of any law, just like criminals carry illegal weapons. Only the law-abiding citizens could therefore be targeted

[ric2b]

> e2e is a heavily utilized must-have for any organized crime these days

Do you happen to have a source? I'm under the impression that they prefer to use SMS on pre-paid burner phones.