[thatfrenchguy]

> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it.

A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

[Loughla]

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted - maybe it's the flippant response? The message is correct, though.

The caste system in India sounds exactly like the class system in the US, only more formalized. In my area, there absolutely are surnames that you can associate with 'those' people, and who are, in my experience, passed over for jobs.

Maybe it's my ignorance, but doesn't a caste system whereby you are exposed to more privileges simply due to your birth sound exactly like a class system based on income whereby you are exposed to privilege simply because of your birth (because of your parents' income)?

[fhood]

Can you elaborate further? In very small towns surname can link you to a specific family, but outside of that and something like anti-semitism, I don't think I've ever heard of surname related association of that kind in the US.

[Loughla]

I guess, it depends on your definition of 'very small town'. My closest city center is 100k, and there definitely are names associated with 'those'. They tend to be names associated with lower-income folks who have run-ins with the law.

For example - we recently hired an entry level position, and one of the search committee members tried to veto a candidate because of her last name. This name is one that comes from the wrong side of the tracks, and is quite a poor family. Nothing about this young lady indicated anything but an ability to do the job well, but the committee member just "didn't trust an [last name here]".

That was a fun conversation.

It's absolutely prevalent in smaller towns. Where I grew up the population was 40k, with smaller towns (<1000) around. If you didn't have a good name there, you absolutely were left out. This is actually why I moved away - my family is poor, like dirt floor, outhouse poor. I tried to climb some ladders in the area, and kept getting stopped when I tried to go past bottom level manager.

As soon as I moved, I was fast-tracked up the organization. I have to imagine it's based on my name around my home town.

[yowlingcat]

There's some nuance to the differences -- think about the terms "old money" vs "new money" -- the fact that people even came up with those terms tells you a bit more about the hierarchy. I think it's an interesting thought exercise to continue why it's more formalized. Perhaps some of the explanation could be derived from the relative age -- present Indian society is about 10x older than present American society, in which native societies were in large part wiped out by disease and subsequent colonial settlement, the latter of which is only ~400 years old.

[dudul]

I wouldn't say it sounds "exactly" like they are the same.

At least in theory, your income reflects your work and is not set for life, while a "caste system" is usually unescapable. And yes, of course being born in a wealthy family gives you privileges but I don't see anything wrong with people working hard to provide for their descendants.

I understand that it breaks down in practice where wealth attracts wealth, but while I would say they are comparable, I wouldn't call them exactly the same.

[Loughla]

I absolutely would call them the same. What is different in a caste system you are born into that provides privilege for some, but lack of resources to another and a class system that provides wealth and privilege for some, but lack of resources beginning at birth for others?

When education from an early age is funded via property taxes (as much of the US is), we are baking in the inequality. If you come from a wealthy neighborhood, your kids have access to resources. If you come from a poor area, your kids have no access to those resources.

If your parents are wealthy professionals, they can provide for you while you work unpaid internships or provide you with connections to college friends to start your career. If your parents are laborers or lower classes, they can't even take time off to come to your graduation. (I know that second one is a bit dramatic, but you get the idea).

In the US, much 'in-group' signaling is based around sports and hobbies that require both time and money. If you didn't play sports as a kid, you're questioned. If you don't have the 'cool clothes' or 'cool car' you're questioned. All of these are class related.

How is this different? Other than being 'formal', honestly, what is the difference between caste system and the very overt class system in the US? That's not a snide question, that's a real question. Where are the differences?

[mrep]

What people are in this 'in-group' you speak of because evidently I'm not in it because nobody questions me in a class sort of way about sports, hobbies, my plain t-shirts, shorts and sandals, my subaru car or anything of that sort. My internships admittedly weren't unpaid but that is generally for poorly paying careers anyways and I'm a highly paid software engineer nor did I get my job through connections of any sort, just went to your standard midwest public state school, applied online and even wore a hockey jersey to my interview.

I mean, I'm sure they are some people coasting through life on their parents money and connections for like the 0.1% but it definitely doesn't seem like there is an overt class system for the average person here to me.

[Loughla]

So what you're doing is using anecdotal data to draw conclusions.

Your experience sounds awesome! But to think that, because you did 'Thing A', means 'Thing B' doesn't exist is odd to me.

Overt class signaling from today, at my job:

Conversation between co-workers regarding weekend plans. Co-worker A is going to her weekend house. Co-worker B is going on a float trip on her pontoon boat. I am helping my grandpa re-do his front porch steps, because he can't afford to have a contractor build a ramp for his wheelchair.

Insert blank stare from co-workers A and B here.

It's not as if someone is saying, "What car do you drive, is it worth $55,000?" Instead, they question as to why you drive a 10 year old Kia instead of trading it in, YEARS ago for a new car. They then make you the butt of any jokes about being a cheapskate or penny pincher, when in fact, that's all you can afford because you're supporting an extended family still living in poverty.

It's not as if someone is judging you based on your clothes, by explicitly saying things like, "why don't you wear a tuxedo" or whatever. But it may be that you are passed over for promotions, because you can't afford the clothes to fit in at the golf club (let alone the fees for the membership), so you don't get to rub elbows with executives. That's if you even understand that's a thing.

[mensetmanusman]

One difference is that the class system is genetically diversified every 2 to 3 generations or so, because the people that inherit the wealth from their parents and grandparents inevitably end up wasting it away. The churn is real.

[sneak]

> A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

Maybe in France, I don't know about that. But from what I've learned about the caste system, it's nothing like the class system in the US.

Sure, the US class system is (statistically speaking) heritable, but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if you'll get beaten simply for walking into certain buildings or touching strangers.

US racism might be a more appropriate comparison.

[acituan]

> but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if you'll get beaten simply for walking into certain buildings or touching strangers

I am glad you’ve enumerated all those aspects because class definitely follows most Americans around, tied to their FICO score, their debt, their education credentials therefore the jobs they can get into, their neighborhood therefore surrounding crime levels, law enforcement and justice system attitude towards them, incarceration rates etc. It even determines who they can marry based on their gender (e.g statistically men don’t get to marry “up”).

We don’t like to call it caste because it probably offends some sensibilities, but class is definitely sticky in the US.

[vinay427]

Isabel Wilkerson, author of "Caste" which is mentioned elsewhere in this thread, draws a fairly clear distinction between caste and class. It's succinctly summarized in her interview with Trevor Noah linked below, around 2:35, and I don't know if I agree but I think you'd find her explanation potentially interesting nonetheless. I tend to instinctively balk whenever people equate or simplify multiple concepts into a single idea, because this too often yields an oversimplification in my experience, and the nuances are usually worth preserving if they genuinely exist.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7m49DT8pPe0

[aaronblohowiak]

There is a VEEY well reviewed book called Caste that talks about USA, India and South Africa. It is next on my reading list.