[112012123]

They're worth a good bit less than single-digit millions. For context, you can pick up an airworthy 15 year old 777 right now for ~5 million dollars.

Last time I spoke with a widebody broker a few months ago, an old 747 with no equipment was a smidge less than $100k. Though with COVID, airworthy 747 freighters are 30-50 million....

[ineedasername]

Well, you know what they say: The two happiest days of your life are the day you buy a broken down widebody 747, and the day you blow it up.

[throwawaysea]

This made me laugh. Thank you.

[nathan_f77]

Wow, I would have never guessed that! That makes me think that it might be fun to buy a piece of land and live inside an old 747. I found this video where someone is living inside a Boeing 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iat-WgSvGME

Here's another person living in a 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=rKm5oF2p-II

This one has a much nicer interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwLlI9abgU

According to one of the comments on the first video, they spent 120k on the plane, and another 100k to move it to the forest. I would probably want to spend another ~300k for renovations and everything else (proper foundation, shower, kitchen, water and sewer lines, etc. etc.)

It's not cheap, but that's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Especially compared to the average house in an expensive city. I think it might also be a lot more fun than living in a "tiny house".

I recently read this "Why We Don't Like Our Underground House" article that was posted on HN: https://dengarden.com/misc/The-Pitfalls-of-an-Underground-Ho... That was a reminder that doing something unconventional can be risky and cause lots of unexpected problems. So it would probably be a good idea to also spend a lot of money on architects and engineers to make sure that everything is done properly and there's no surprises.

[throwaway0a5e]

A better price break down is probably:

$120k on the plane. $5k to move it into the forest. $95k fee for not having friends with heavy equipment. $200k for making somebody else do the renovating for you. $50k on materials. $50k on markup.

Neither the weight nor size of the plane are astronomical. The square footage to renovate isn't that high either. The reason it costs so much is that it's odd and every time you pay someone else there's a huge cost associated with a one-off and everything about the project is one-off.

[nsonha]

transporting a dead airplane should cost much more than 5k

[loco5niner]

That's where this comment comes in:

> $95k fee for not having friends with heavy equipment.

[briffle]

There is one by me that is on the roof of a water park. 6 water slides start from the fuselage. https://www.wingsandwaveswaterpark.com/

Of course, it's next door to, and both started by the guy who ran the now defunct evergreen aviation.

[bleepblorp]

I suspect one of the largest problems with converting an airliner into a house would be getting the legal permission to do it.

Obviously, the fact that it has been done means that it is legally possible in some jurisdictions, but it's likely to be an uphill battle--or completely impossible--elsewhere.

Communities that require newly constructed buildings to match the character of the neighborhood likely would never grant permission for an airliner house. Jurisdictions that don't have this requirement would still require building code compliance, which could be extremely difficult to achieve as the technical standards used in aviation are not comparable to those used in conventional construction or mobile homes. At minimum, you'd have major issues with insulation requirements, fire resistance, and emergency egress.

After all of this, you'd still need to find a bank willing to issue a construction loan/mortgage, and an insurer willing to cover the finished product.

$300K might be a very low-end estimate of the costs involved to make everything physically and legally proper.

[xienze]

> It's not cheap, but that's a lot cheaper than I was expecting.

Seems like quite a bit to live in a 747 in the middle of nowhere. Why not just buy an already-built $500K house in the middle of nowhere? It would be bigger and save you a whole lot of hassle.

[freehunter]

Why does anyone do anything that’s not strictly necessary? Because it’s cool.

[microtonal]

proper foundation

I got quite nervous as the plane appears to be resting on a pile of wood pellets.

[throwaway0a5e]

Wood cribbing can hold up ships. Unlike a house or conventional building the plane has enough strength to not fall apart when subject to uneven loading and the three point foundation is going to make it basically impossible to twist it apart if one piling sinks and the others don't. As long as it's level enough for the owner's satisfaction it should be fine.

[AdrianB1]

The property tax may be extremely high if the property is evaluated at the price of a flying plane, not at purchasing price.

[redis_mlc]

> Wow, I would have never guessed that!

Airliners are merely business tools - operators have no romance for any plane.

If a 777 is even 2% more efficient than a 747, the 747 is grounded and chopped up.

The related factors are that 4 engines is more maintenance than 2 engines, the classic 747 is no longer certified for passenger use in the USA (wiring and fuel-tank inerting ADs), and ETOPS allows twin-engine flight on almost all commercially-viable oceanic routes. (ETOPS makes me nervous af.)

Source: commercially-rated airplane pilot.

[mjg59]

> ETOPS makes me nervous af

The only case I can think of where an ETOPS flight had both engines fail due to something other than fuel exhaustion was BA38, and it's hard to say a quad jet would have managed better there. I can understand the gut feeling that the safety factor has been reduced, but given several decades without horror stories is it really still something to be nervous about?

[redis_mlc]

FYI: Actually several have diverted. You should study the ETOPS requirements to see how nervous the regulators are. Each ETOPS flight has special requirements for alternates that have lodging, food and reasonably nearby (timewise) maintenance. (Cold Bay is not a fun place to be stranded.)

It's unlikely that an airliner can maintain altitude on one engine, so the risk is high that once a problem occurs, things can go bad fast. Ditching 300 passengers in the open ocean guarantees fatalities.

I understand that non-pilots think "it's handled", but that's not really the case.

That's why the old expression "it's a 4-engine ocean" came about.

"Small Planes Over Big Oceans (ETOPS Explained)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g

[snowwrestler]

What does it mean to say that regulators are “nervous” about ETOPS? Regulators are always nervous; that is their job. If they permit something it is because they have determined it is safe enough.

It’s really weird to imply that losing one engine is a ditch situation. Modern airliners can take off on one engine. ETOPS 330 certifies them for operation on one engine for 5.5 hours continuously. They may have to descend a bit from max altitude but there’s a big difference between that and ditching.

More flights have experienced fatal crashes due to pilots flying a perfectly functional airplane into the terrain, than from both engines failing. On objective evidence, you should be more worried about the pilots than the engines.

“It’s a 4-engine ocean” is indeed an old expression.

[justsid]

> It's unlikely that an airliner can maintain altitude on one engine, so the risk is high that once a problem occurs, things can go bad fast. Ditching 300 passengers in the open ocean guarantees fatalities.

This is a super misleading technical truth. There usually is an engine out altitude where it’s most efficient to fly on a single engine. Just like there is an altitude where it’s most efficient with both engines operating. The two don’t need to be the same.

Planes don’t automatically become ETOPS certified, every plane gets tested.

The first step is to certify the type of aircraft itself, for which it is flown on a single engine for the required time of the ETOPS rating. So ETOPS-180 means 180 minutes of flying with a single engine. Not in a simulator, with a real aircraft.

The second step is that each operator also has to become ETOPS certified. You can’t just buy an ETOPS certified jet and fly it over the atlantic. There are additional requirements for crews and mechanical staff, including more regular checks of the aircrafts.

Lastly, this is all based on statistics. So operators have to publish statistics about their fleet. If say engine outs are increasing for a specific airframe and/or operator, it’s possible that their ETOPS rating goes down or is completely suspended.

[nemetroid]

> It's unlikely that an airliner can maintain altitude on one engine, so the risk is high that once a problem occurs, things can go bad fast.

There's nothing likely or unlikely about it - for an aircraft operating an ETOPS flight, the performance characteristics with one engine operative are well known, and taken into consideration when doing the mandatory diversion planning.

[freehunter]

>Actually several have diverted

I’m not a pilot but isn’t that a good thing? Diverting a flight as opposed to... crashing?

[throwaway0a5e]

You know how in a bureaucracy heavy industrial workplace even the most distant of "near misses" gets the book thrown at it even if it doesn't make sense.

Well flying is like that kind of workplace but cranked to 11.

[eloff]

This is why people buy them and turn them into eclectic houses. It's a fun idea. I'd never be able to sell my wife on it, but the boy in me likes it.

[tyingq]

~19 feet wide by ~12 feet high sure beats a used shipping container at 7' 8" wide x 7' 10" high, despite the ovalish shape. Probably terrible to hire some pilot driver service to move it about though, even if it is just the fuselage.

[walrus01]

The people who tried to haul the carcass of a 747 to Burning Man discovered how difficult it is to coordinate anything that is such an oversized load, on public highways.

Most of the places I can think of that I could get local government permission, and buy cheap land, to put a 747 house in place... Have a near 1:1 venn diagram overlap with places that might have a half mile dirt driveway with trees on both sides, where it would be difficult to get a truck and traditional dimension single-wide mobile home into, nevermind a 747.

[wutbrodo]

They didn't just try, they did it. I've partied in it multiple separate Burns.

This year they definitely had some issues getting it off of the playa, but your comment might imply to the unfamiliar that they didn't succeed in getting it on-playa.

[walrus01]

I didn't say they didn't get it there, but it took a lot of coordination with electrical and telecom companies to remove wiring (it's way, way over 13'6"), and they were only hauling it through mostly empty desert and rural areas. Time and effort from local law enforcement to shut down public roads and such. I can't even imagine trying to take a 747 fuselage down a road anywhere more populated that has aerial electrical/telecom wiring.

There is a guy in Oregon who lives in a 727-200, but that's a lot less work to take down a road.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/airplane-home-in-the-woo...

[wutbrodo]

> I didn't say they didn't get it there

I know, I tried to word my comment carefully to avoid implying that you were being intentionally misleading. I was just clarifying for the benefit of the unfamiliar

[tyingq]

Yes. I imagine just getting someone to cut off the fuel-tanks-througout wings is a challenge. Moving it afterwards is likely very hard.

[throwaway0a5e]

It's just a kerosene/diesel tank (jet fuel is basically kerosene or diesel depending on grade) an aluminum one at that. As far as cutting up fuel tanks goes it doesn't get any easier. Though that won't anyone you hire from trying to screw you on price "because fuel".

[megablast]

Or a boat, where 1000s of people live. Dry comfortably.

[nathan_f77]

Haha yes, I just watched 3 videos on YouTube, and so far they have been all been single men. My wife says she's interested though, as long as it's a comfortable place to live and looks decent. (Some of the ones I found on YouTube sort of looked like someone was squatting in an abandoned plane.)

One of the people also talked about turning a second one into an AirBnb, so I think that's a great idea. It would be a very unique place to stay, so I think it would be fully booked if you're in a decent location.

[tmzt]

Not an example of living in the fuselage, but a unique take on building with one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/747_Wing_House

[nathan_f77]

Oh yeah! I remember seeing that on The World's Most Extraordinary Homes. You can watch that episode here: https://www.netflix.com/watch/80213105?trackId=200257859

[k_sze]

Don’t sell your wife on it. Sell your wife for it.

[MichaelZuo]

Yikes, that’s even greater depreciation than I thought. Even then that 777 seems almost too good to be true with the current fuel prices, do you have the link or the details on it?

[112012123]

Afraid no link - I'm actually in the process of buying 777s right now at a bit less than that (and then hopefully flipping for 5 apiece). Fresh out of a heavy C check, too.

But if you're curious re:prices, you can call the dealer listed on Controller.com as selling a 777. He's actually got several for sale in that neighborhood (and is super friendly, too - Eric).

[MichaelZuo]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you got a great deal on those 777s. How much effort does it take to go through one of those flips? I imagine relocation and storage might be a hassle depending on where they’re at.

[112012123]

More complicated than buying a used car, but not horrible. The biggest issue is getting seller alignment.

On the cash front, ferry flights to the US are the biggest expense by far. A 777 burns ~$10,000 in fuel per hour, so positioning from (say) Asia to a boneyard in California adds up quickly... with crew, ferry insurance, landing fees & sundries you end up at $200-$250k. Parking runs around $3-5k per month in the desert, too.

[disillusioned]

This is a stupid question, but is there any way to monetize a ferry flight like that? Could you still bring along some cargo, or would insurance or increased fuel cost (or perhaps lack of airworthiness for cargo?) make it not worth it?

I figure if you're starting at, say, $150k to ferry it, might as well fill it with some junk.

[looping__lui]

I guess a big question will revolve around “is the airplane completely airworthy for commercial cargo transports”. If you park it in the desert to “die” it is possible the answer is: no. Also adding the complexity that the cargo you transport probably isn’t destined for the desert either.

Ferry permits can be issued to airplanes “not airworthy and operating outside their certified range” if I am not mistaken.

[112012123]

That is an excellent question - and one that I don't know the answer to. It's something we're looking into.

Incidentally though, the FAA minimum liability coverage for a widebody is $750 million, and the policies I've seen do allow for cargo onboard (though not passengers).

[smabie]

Who do you flip to? Like what do they want to do with it?

Also, is it possible to buy non-airworthy ones and fix them up and sell them as air worthy ones? Or is it too expensive?

[tyingq]

There's likely some middle ground. Like a 747 that is ALMOST due a heavy check and mx cycle and very close to end of life.

[stanfordkid]

Steven Spielberg used an old 747 for War of the worlds and the set is still on the tram tour at Universal Studios.

Apparently the airplane itself was free, but it cost $250k to transport it to the location of filming!

[lostlogin]

Are you able to explain what your line of work is?

[tus88]

Yeah but what's the insurance bill...