[elliottcarlson]

Depends on the intentions... are you a farmer bartering your crops for another farmers meat; or are you knowingly circumventing laws.

This is similar to the way Pachinko parlors work in Japan and Taiwan - you collect a ball from the machine when you win, and with a certain amount of balls you can receive various token prizes. This prize can then be redeemed around the corner at a different location for cash. Cash was exchanged - there were just middlemen involved - but it still comes down to gambling.

If you are intending to replace currency with something else not produced by the government, then you are not bartering, you are introducing private currency and that is illegal.

[nika]

There is no law prohibiting private currency.

Disney Dollars: http://www.disneydollars.net/ BerkShares: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jul2007/sb20070.... Buy Local—With Town Currency Dollar alternatives, such as BerkShares in Massachusetts, are shoring up local economies by keeping money in the community Microsoft Points: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Live/MicrosoftPoints Pittsboro Plenty: http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/9/north_carolina_town_pri....

[ChuckMcM]

Nika, none of the issuers you mention will convert back into dollars. Its a one way street. Presumably they have set up agreements with people who will accept them an they have pre-negotiated a discount rate. Its like chucky cheese tokens, you can't turn them back into quarters so that you can play more video games.

[zach]

Actually, now that you mention it...

According to recent California law, "a gift certificate with a cash value of less than ten dollars ($10) is redeemable in cash (not a new certificate or merchandise) for its cash value."

Disney dollars are generally available only in denominations of $10 or less, so they may actually be an incredibly-inconvenient cash equivalent in California.

[ChuckMcM]

According to the 'reference site' [1]

"Disney Dollars DO NOT expire. The oldest bill from 1987 can still be used today. As they are worth real money. They also may be exchanged back for the U.S. Dollars or purchased using the same.

They may used to pay for anything that can be normally paid for with cash including the following locations: (only Disney locations)"

They are exactly like casino chips, which is to say that within the Disney properties they can be used equivalently to cash, and even converted back into cash.

Given the Las Vegas experience however, I suspect that people in and around Orlando or other Disney locations, who aren't associated with Disney, should not accept them in lieu of cash.

One of the parallels to remember, the Secret Service wasn't going after the casinos for their chips, they were going after people who accepted them as cash even though they had no business relationship with the casino.

[1] http://disneydollars.net/where_can_disney_dollars_be_used.ht...

[makmanalp]

What about bitcoins? I thought you could convert those back to dollars.

[ChuckMcM]

Good question. Early on when I was trying to create a milli-cent currency for subscription buying of content from a website we wondered if we offered a refund for our digital cash tokens if we'd get in trouble for it.

As it turned out the Digi-cash folks had all the patents and were being real dicks about licensing so we never got to test the question.

I can absolutely predict that if you can buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoins from person X, and then go to persons P, Q, R, ... Z and redeeem them back for cash, that the authorities will shut down that sort of thing quite quickly.

[weavejester]

"I can absolutely predict that if you can buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoins from person X, and then go to persons P, Q, R, ... Z and redeeem them back for cash, that the authorities will shut down that sort of thing quite quickly."

It's already been done:

http://i.imgur.com/PUMtG.jpg

That's 400k BTC (about $400k) being sent to a number of different accounts.

[kwis]

Good luck cashing that out without crashing the market. Somebody pointed out, just a few days ago, that a $10k sell-off recently scrubbed 25% off BCN/USD. A 400,000BCN sell-off would almost certainly drop it to pennies.

[colanderman]

Actually yes, you can convert BerkShares back to USD. http://www.berkshares.org/whatareberkshares.htm

[elliottcarlson]

You are right - as long as the nomination is exchangeable for U.S. currency and all transactions are taxed accordingly.

But on the note of the parent:

> Where does one draw the line between bartering with chips and paying with chips?

It's not bartering when you are trying to get around things intentionally.

[nika]

I like how you just assert-- sans any evidence or argument-- that they are trying to "get around things intentionally". You don't even say what things.

Don't bother, I don't care. I'm just amazed at the BS this topic has elicited from people, and I am done defending these guys.

All the BS is just proof of why the country is going to hell- why the FBI was able to steal $7M in gold, silver and platinum and get away with it.

It is because you, and the rest of the ignorant government "educated" americans can't be bothered to think critically.

[elliottcarlson]

Do you need a hug? Seems like you are a little stressed by this thread.

According to the documents posted, the poker sites in question are attempting to get around the legalities of U.S. citizens placing monetary wagers or bets on international gambling sites. This would be an intentional circumvention of the law.

The example I posted in regards to Pachinko parlors circumventing their local laws by allowing people to trade in fake token prizes for cash is an example of people circumventing their local law.

There is nothing wrong with bartering or the barter system - and it is perfectly legal in it's intended use, but it can be used to circumvent other laws and would be illegal based on the legal definition of intent. As for the government stealing assets illegally - yeah that's wrong. Confiscation of these .com's bothers me a great deal - but that wasn't the topic I was replying to.

I am not an "ignorant government "educated" american" - and while my self education in legal matters may very well be off at times, I am able to think critically and be reasonable in what I do and don't know.

The problem is, that you are unable to have a conversation with someone that may be right or wrong on a topic - and it might not always be right that you can convince someone of the true nature of matters even if you are right. That doesn't mean you can act like an asshole - which you are. You don't know me, and because of one statement you are more than willing to blame everything you conceive as wrong on someone like "me". Get off your pedestal and learn to have a civil conversation - it's an awesome trait to have.

[rhizome]

This isn't really the best site for the "Wake up, sheeple!" thing.

[lotusleaf1987]

You come off like a completely arrogant know it all, regardless of the validity of your claims, the responses you're getting are largely from your own comment's original tone, not the subject, in my opinion of course.