[FlyingSideKick]

I’ve studied Afro-Cuban percussion for 28 years now and I can tell you from experience there are some bata rhythms that definitely make the listener enter into a heavy trance state. Haitian vodun drumming is especially designed for generating trance and out of body experiences in its entirety. If you can find an old recording of Haitian voodoo drums give it a listen using good headphones with your eyes closed, and after about twenty minutes you will enter an altered state.

[blkhp19]

It would be great if you could link to a recording that you think could induce this state, given that you’re an expert in this field! If I’m left to search on my own I’m not sure I’ll find the correct recording.

[sk5t]

+1 and why must it be an "old recording" - have modern Haitian voodoo drummers lost the way? Seems a bit set-up for shifting goalposts...

[bryanrasmussen]

if you have perfection in a product, the only evolution possible is for it to become less perfect.

People being people the best are not content with always doing the same thing, so they will experiment and move away, following other influences. The drumming may become great in other ways but not great in the way of inducing trance states the way it once way.

Just my theory on why it might be that an old recording is better for inducing trance than a newer one might be.

[Drakim]

Your point is technically correct, but it seems a bit preposterous to say that the old drumming music was flawless perfection in introducing these sort of effects, to the point where any change would by definition be a determent. How would you know that? How would anybody know that?

[bryanrasmussen]

yeah, I wouldn't know, but if the old recordings seem better for inducing trance and the newer not I offer an explanation why that could be without the newer generation of Haitian voodoo drummers necessarily having to be worse drummers.

[dr_dshiv]

https://youtu.be/D-mw9FJ7yec

This is from the 50s-60s.

[lultimouomo]

So should I get in a trance state listening to this?

[vanderZwan]

After four minutes? I doubt it.

In my experience with trying to meditate to rhythms it takes fifteen minutes to half an hour before you really notice a significant difference to meditation without it.

Also, "should" is not really the right word to use here - I would go with "might".

What I mean with that is that this isn't like a pill whose are chemicals will do its on their own after consumption, with or without thinking about them. It's an effect that is produced through a sensory interaction with the brain. As a result, how one consciously attends to that interaction has a huge impact on the effectiveness.

[briefcomment]

Pretty great, but that poor chicken.

[pantalaimon]

Probably new regulations.

[willturman]

It became much harder to find the psychoactive stuff once they were classified as Schedule 1 rhythms.

[exikyut]

That would be a great name for a band.

[omarchowdhury]

Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxboZrFcvRo&

Give it your entire attention.

[0xdeadb00f]

I did not give it my entire attention, I'll do that later.

But I will say this is just genuinely good music.

[khofstadter]

very good music, thanks!

[sbierwagen]

If we're talking drum-based drone ambient, there's Man Forever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1b6chDYxK4

[thewarrior]

I’ve been experimenting with this myself and this video https://youtu.be/BwqH7l9xSgo along with some breathwork does seem to work.

[farseer]

can you describe this "breathework"? So we can determine if mild asphyxia can be ruled out.

[thewarrior]

I advice people to take it slow and stop if uncomfortable. Whether it’s involved or not it works.

[montalbano]

Not OP but Smithsonian Folkways record label would be, in my mind, the best online source for such recordings. For example:

https://folkways.si.edu/music-of-haiti-vol-2-drums-of-haiti/...

https://folkways.si.edu/rhythms-of-rapture-sacred-musics-of-...

[Trasmatta]

There was an interesting section in Michael Pollan's book "How to Change Your Mind" about combining breathwork with drumming. It seems with the right setup that you can induce certain altered states of consciousness that are pretty equivalent to certain psychedelics.

I'm definitely interested in seeing what can be done to without the aid of drugs. As someone who had some bad trips that gave me 6 months of anxiety, a non drug induced altered state sounds preferable.

That being said, even something as seemingly benign as meditation can lead to intensely challenging experiences in certain situations. But overall, not relying on drugs seems generally safer.

[ngcazz]

I'm considering trying LSD soon for its therapeutic potential and am concerned about anxiety as an input and output of tripping, as it were. Would you be open to sharing your experience with me? Sorry if that's out of line.

[Loughla]

Like most psychedelics, LSD gives you back what you put into it. It, especially, though, is not an on/off switch like most of reddit's crowd would have you believe.

I have had generalized anxiety, and some other acute anxiety issues for about 30 years now. I experimented with LSD among many other psychedelics through my 20's and 30's.

For LSD, to avoid a bad trip, you need a good road map. I would advise some counseling to identify your personal problems with an impartial third party, beforehand. Naming your issues will help you to identify if you are spiraling into them. Second, take it in a comfortable setting, surrounded by things that are important to you. Music helps immensely, but focus on something without too much of a political/social/religious message, just in case. Having a trip sitter who has experience with psychedelics cannot be stressed enough. Having someone clear headed to keep you focused on your good feelings is really helpful.

Also, if you are concerned about an anxiety response before taking it, you will experience anxiety. Your mind is a wonderful tool, in that, it is almost constantly making your experience self-fulfilling prophecies.

The only other note I would add is, if you do experience anxiety, or a bad trip, take notes. Generally, the things you experience are based on your life's "pinch points" and are the things that are bothering you deep down.

For me, I experienced severe anxiety spirals regarding whether or not my friends were really my friends, and whether or not I was a good spouse and parent. When I finally started writing down my spirals, and evaluating them for themes later, I realized that I was trying to tell myself to be less distracted, less selfish, more giving, more caring, and more present for the people around me. Oh, and to do the damned dishes every now and again.

[Trasmatta]

I took too much and didn't have the relevant experience.

If you take a low dose and follow harm reduction practices you should be fine. Just make sure you do your research ahead of time, and go in knowing the risks. If you have underlying mental health issues, then be careful, and maybe consider alternatives that don't require drugs.

[Gowan29]

Personally I think you should consider other things before you go down the road of LSD. Improvisation (in particular), psychotherapy, meditation, dance/sports classes, art are all worth going through first, particularly if you are under 25 (still a fair of brain re-wiring going on up to this age, and further its life long in a limited way).

LSD / Weed can induce severe nasty reactions in people and no one quite knows why. I do find the "you have to be prepared to face the truth" mentality of some people who take drugs to be a bit dangerous. (Note: I experimented with pretty much every drug before so I'm aware of the effects).

[jonnydubowsky]

I highly recommend The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on The Tibetan Book of the Dead by Timothy Leary, Ralph Metzner and Richard Alpert.

"The authors discuss the Tibetan Book of the Dead and use the process of death and rebirth presented in it as a metaphor for the experience of ego death or depersonalization that is commonly experienced under the influence of psychedelic drugs. Similar to how the intended function of the Tibetan Book of the Dead is to be used as a guide for death and rebirth, The Psychedelic Experience is meant to be used as a guide on how to properly handle experiences of ego death while undergoing the psychedelic experience

The book discusses the various phases of ego death that can occur on psychedelics and gives specific instructions on how one should regard them and act during each of these different phases. In addition to containing more general advice for the readers on how to use psychedelics, the book also includes selections of writing presented with the intent for them to be read aloud during events where groups of people take psychedelic drugs together".*

The recommendations in the book can be adapted to work with one other individual, someone who has experience with the different possible states that might be encountered through the trip.

Your state of mind, and the surrounding environment are crucial to realizing an optimal experience. If you go into a psychedelic experience with a lot of anxiety over having a "bad trip", it can end up being a self fulfilling influence.

Following the guidance in this book requires a mindful preparation, often spread out over a few weeks. I think this level of intent is helpful in raising up the overall experience.

"This manual is divided into four parts. The first part is introductory. The second is a step-by-step description of a psychedelic experience based directly on the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The third part contains practical suggestions on how to prepare for and conduct a psychedelic session.

The fourth part contains instructive passages adapted from the Bardo Thodol, which may be read to the voyager during this session, to facilitate the movement of consciousness."

Here’s an audio recording of the authors reading from the book:

https://youtu.be/JhgJsg2mMeQ

The book is available as a free pdf on Timothy Leary's website:

http://www.leary.ru/download/leary/Timothy%20Leary%20-%20The...

[nnt38]

Start low, first dose should probably be not over 100ug, if you have anxiety you should go for more like 75 (maybe 50). After having experience with that state of mind you can go higher. (Wait at least for 2 weeks between doses)

[bil7]

as long as on your first time you start with a low dose, in a safe, familiar setting with people you trust, you'll thoroughly enjoy your experience. I would not recommend smoking weed at all.

[noir_lord]

I've found there are certain Tool songs (46 & 2, Lateralus) that it's not a good idea to listen to when doing something that requires focus (like riding my motorcycle), they make me get lost and zone out far faster.

On the other hand when trying to calm my mind after a busy day there is nothing better.

[Guthur]

I really like Tool but never get that...unfortunately :)

Maybe try "We Are" on Asymmetry by Karnivool as well. I find the drums quite mesmerising, i've heard it's not quite as complex as it sounds.

[iamthealchemist]

I frickin love that album

[lvturner]

I read this comment whilst listening to Forty Six & 2 thinking the exact same thing!

In fact, that's often why I listen to Tool!

[crawlcrawler]

>> find an old recording of Haitian voodoo drums give it a listen using good headphones with your eyes closed, and after about twenty minutes you will enter an altered state

I followed your trance recipe to the letter and soon entered a state of mind that on this day was novel to me. It seriously made me happy to be alive and to be human. However, that feeling didn't linger. Now I'm back to my usual miserable self, a blob of cells that all try but mostly they fail to communicate with each other in a way that is pleasant for the vessel, me. I don't think I was in a trance. Perhaps I should have danced.

I'm very intrigued, though, by the idea of rhythm being a protagonist ingredient of "flow". I'm a programmer, musician only by heart, but on Wednesdays instead of instruments I play the rhythmic game of tennis. One time me and my brother, two racket-throwing outwards-acting tennis brats in need of anger management therapy both entered "flow" at the same time and it lasted a good hour and a half. In the middle of our match a large group of youngsters, perhaps thirty individuals, entered the yard and became our audience. They started to discuss our game. They correctly dismissed us as being "not top notch". They chit-chatted. They said this and that. They were merely meters away from us but acted like they were watching TV and that e could not possibly hear them. After the game we both said: were you ever bothered by the ruckus? We concluded that no, we weren't but that we could still paraphrase almost all of the comments we've heard from the audience. But during the game it seemed to us that nothing could get us out of the state of flow. In fact, neither of us understood we were in the flow state until the ruckus began.

This was an out-of-mind, out-of-body and out-of-this-world experience for me that I have not been able to reproduce since. I was untouchable and I loved it.

[mam2]

do you have the link of the music ?

[lowdose]

This was a GPT3 response.

[SamBam]

I keep seeing comments like this. I don't really get it. Is it snark? Is it assumption? Do you actually happen to know?

[Loughla]

Is it? It's super convincing if it is. No weird artifacts or phrases.

[mam2]

how do you know

[krishofstadter]

In addition to the comments/links:

Regarding music and the mind, the synchronisation/entrainment method of audio driving/sonic driving has been addressed in the book 'Music, Science and the Rhythmic Mind' by Berger and Turow. Research that looks at aligning not just the rate (tempo) of the music to brainwaves, but varieties of rhythm has been done by Jeff Strong, founder of Rhythmic Entrainment Intervention (some of his YouTube videos talk about specifics). Jeff has studies Vodou music AFAIK.

Regarding altering states of mind through meditation, Jeff Tarrent's NeuroMeditation Institute has some interesting work and regarding altering states with psychedelics, the work of Andrew Gallimore's (Alien Insect's) work is also very interesting. Andrew in his YouTube video series talks about how connections in the brain change when exposed to psychedelics - I would be interested to see correlation between the way 'trance' music (without drugs) and 'psychedelics' (drugs:) create these states.

Some of our work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFVzwZtmecc

https://tedor.bandcamp.com/album/shamanic-soundscape-level-t...

[loosetypes]

Bit of an aside but various states consciousness has always been front of mind in certain regards with Haitian culture.

Zombie-mania has been in the US for a while now, but in Haiti it, at least in part, originally referred to when you zone out going through rote day-to-day actions without thinking.

Can’t remember where you parked your car? You were a zombie when you did it.

Etymologically it’s interesting as well, to be taken (literally “mounted”) by a lwa or spirit.

[dbtc]

Fascinating. It sounds like the exact opposite of "mindfulness".

[taneq]

And interestingly, sounds pretty similar to the 'state of flow' that we also find so valuable.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

It could be more nuanced than that. In zombie-like states it looks like System 1 takes over and you just do basic activities without really being present in them. In the "flow" state you need to actively engage System 2, although at the same time you tend to reduce the amount of external stimuli to focus on the action at hand.

[Delk]

I think it's different in that in a state of flow, you are intensely focused on whatever it is you're doing, and are able to maintain that focus without struggle.

In a "zombie" state, you may not really be focusing on anything at all, least of all what you're doing.

[whatshisface]

>Can’t remember where you parked your car? You were a zombie when you did it.

Usually that happens when I'm thinking about something else. Also, the visual input walking away from your care is totally different from the scene you see walking towards your car.

[adgsadgsasdg]

there's also that whole fraud-by-scopolamine tradition in haiti that contributes to zombi-mania....

[Cthulhu_]

This has turned into a music recommendation thread, apparently.

From a different side of the world, Wardruna has a few 'trancey' tracks; here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F67VZblDrQg

[exikyut]

Wow, I'm totally hearing Krigsgaldr (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRg_8NNPTD8) in this, who inspired who?

[noir_lord]

Heilung as as well, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CvBSnzSz-o

[exikyut]

Welp, left this tab on the add-comment page while getting thoroughly distracted over on YouTube.

Beat me by 38 minutes :D

[mtalantikite]

The experimental filmmaker Maya Deren made a short film in Haiti about some Vodoun ceremonies (and was an initiate herself). I haven’t seen it since I was around college aged, so I don’t recall what the narration was like (i.e. was it maybe exoticising), but I do remember the footage being great.

Here’s an article that came up when searching for it with a link to the video, which gives some context: https://www.wilderutopia.com/performance/film/maya-deren-div...

It also is on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4cusCpzg6tY

[cgh]

Everyone is talking about music yet the “rhythm” in the article has nothing to do with music.

[betenoire]

Rhythm IS music

[Ericson2314]

Can certain music reliably create the 3/s firing of neurons in this specific area of the brain?

I'm a musician, but I don't see why the answer is obviously a "yes".

[betenoire]

I don't know. I responded to the claim it had nothing to do with music.

[reinkaos]

Brazilian Candomblé ritual music may have the same effect. For those who want to try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ZBZI5pSOg

[rolfea]

interesting you bring this up as it shares many roots with the Afro-Cuban diasporic music associated with bata drumming

[reinkaos]

Yeah they are both rooted in the music brought by the African diaspora. You will find this all throughout Central and Latin America, although with some variations in rhythms and instruments used.

[rolfea]

I feel like with this music it's hard to separate the dance, song, and religious context. Have you experienced trance states in the sense that practioners do with Orishas embodying participants, or do you mean something else by "trance?"

I think it's also interesting you indicate listeners, rather than the drummers getting into that state - my memories of learning bata drumming are largely of going into a hyper-focused state that I wouldn't describe as trancelike, but also very different than the mindset I was in playing something like orchestral music.

[ktopaz]

Try "Disposition, Reflection, Triad" by Tool :) Truly an experience

[playingchanges]

Awesome. There are plenty of modern forms of music / rhythms indented to induce trance as well. Disco four on the floor and Techno come to mind.

[danparsonson]

Something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e8bUyC55cc

[DecoPerson]

Woah woah woah you can’t just offer ketamine to people! Think of the children!

Edit: This comment is intended to contribute to the discussion as well as be in jest. It’s a legitimate issue: if music can have drug-like effects, should some music be classed as a drug and controlled as such?

[ganzuul]

If you are looking to compare music to drugs you are operating in a space where you need also need to consider if drugs are treated like they should be. You probably should not treat music as drugs are treated because our treatment of drugs is wrong.

[danparsonson]

Go on, try it... first one's free

[krageon]

It being the case that drug legislation is already a pile of shit and demonstrably not in the advantage of actual people, why would we make other things legislated just as poorly?

[stef25]

Could you recommend any artists or albums? Love this stuff!

[rolfea]

Abbilona has recorded a lot of these sacred Afro-Cuban "liturgies"

https://sunlightsquare.bandcamp.com/album/masters-of-bat

[spurdoman77]

Give me my free drugs