[8ytecoder]

I fell to a (now) very obvious scam on Instagram. It seems to me that it's really easy to bypass their checks. It was a fake ad for a real product. They accepted PayPal and it took forever to get PayPal to refund me. Worst yet, even after multiple escalations PayPal continued to be on the website. Instagram continued to show me ads for the exact same product from different domains. I realized that PayPal is next to useless if you're a victim of fraud. It's much better to use a credit card directly (esp Amex or Discover) and challenge fraud than PayPal.

[yawboakye]

I use PayPal as a front to my bank account via SEPA Direct Debit, which has an 8-week no questions asked refund policy. If PayPal doesn’t cooperate when I raise the issue I can easily get my money back through my bank. But I still like to dispute just so the business goes on record for fraudulent transaction.

[avianlyric]

You should be careful relying on that. While many Direct Debit systems have some sort of quick refund guarantee, they don't guarantee that you get to keep the money.

The normal flow will be your bank reimburses you from their own pocket. Then goes after the merchant to recover the funds, however if the merchant can present evidence that the charge is valid then the your bank will attempt to claw the money back from you.

Now the important question is here is what is a "valid" payment. Normally the direct debit scheme will outline that that is, and it probably some very simple like there's evidence that you requested the funds are removed from your account. With something like PayPal they can probably claim that the request was valid, at least the bit between PayPal and the bank was, and that the onwards movement of money is a separate issue that doesn't fall under the direct debit guarantee.

It's worth really digging through the small print on these things, they're frequently a lot less helpful than you think, and PayPal has managed to exploit these little holes to their benefit.

Personally I avoid using PayPal where possible and stick to debit/credit card where you have a very simple relationship between you, your bank and the merchant. Which makes disputes much easier, and places the law very much on your side. All this comes from experience dealing with disputes from the banks perspective, and trying to get the right result for the customer, while dealing with payment schemes, and regulatory obligations.

[yawboakye]

Good call. I was referring to SEPA Direct Debit. I should have been clearer. With SEPA Direct Debit, I get an 8-week no questions asked refund, regardless of the nature of the business. In fact, I've used it to recover money from government agencies and businesses that auto-renewed annual contracts without my consent.

[TedDoesntTalk]

In the US, debit cards do not have the same consumer protections that credit cards do. If you’ve gotten refunds from your bank for debit card fraud, you are lucky.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/05021...

“ But if the item was bought with a debit card, it cannot be reversed unless the merchant is willing to do so. What is more, debit card theft victims do not get their refund until an investigation has been completed. Credit card holders, on the other hand, are not assessed the disputed charges; the amount is usually deducted immediately and restored only if the dispute is withdrawn or settled in the merchant's favor. While some credit and debit card providers offer zero-liability protection to their customers, the law is much more forgiving for credit card holders.”

[viraptor]

Direct debit is not a debit card. It's an authorisation to pull funds from your debit account as needed.

[TedDoesntTalk]

If that’s what he’s doing, that’s even worse than a debit card in terms of risk and lack of protection.

[yawboakye]

It might help to read a little about how SEPA Direct Debit works. To begin, it's a European scheme, not American. Not every merchant can sign up for SEPA Direct Debit. They need another bank to be their guarantor (called your SEPA Direct Debit Creditor). When I have issues with a transaction and order a refund within 8 weeks of the transaction, I get my money back, no questions asked. I've used this to recover money from all sorts of businesses and government agencies.

The business can only dispute if I requested for my money back _after_ the 8 weeks. That's when the evidence and back-and-forth with the business comes in.

[jrochkind1]

I recently made a purchase that turned out to be fraudulent on paypal, and somehow had no trouble getting my money back relatively promptly. Maybe have taken about a week from when I filed "I never got the product, I think the whole website was fraud".

[socialist_coder]

Be careful, you can still get scammed here. I got hit for a $75 scam product that I bought with my CC, mistakenly thinking I would be protected. The scammers knew what they were doing though. They ship you a super super super cheap version of the product from china, taking advantage of those low low China -> US shipping rates, so that they have certificate of delivery. So you can't say you never got the product. And in that case, both paypal and the CC company require that you send the item back. Shipping the item back to china costs more than the item itself. So there's no point. Scammers won.

[jkoudys]

Maybe it's because the banks are all pretty good and modern in Canada, but I honestly just don't get PayPal. My credit cards are all very easy to pay with, fraud detected quickly and easy to dispute, and many purchase types insured.