[DoreenMichele]

with so many people out of work and struggling

This concern can be addressed other ways. I run two subreddits aimed at helping people establish an online income (as part of the goal).

In a post-covid world, I think we will do more good if we focus more on adapting to a new reality where increased germ control is a permanent expectation rather than expecting a vaccine to fix everything and allow us to return to "business as usual."

[talentedcoin]

I think this comment is correct and is something that is being missed in the present conversation. For those who disagree -- isn't it better to take realistic steps to help people instead of just crossing our fingers and waiting for a vaccine?

[SpicyLemonZest]

It just seems terribly dismissive of all the people who want and demand a return to business as usual. A plan for handling the coronavirus that doesn't include "here's when we'll open the bars" is missing a huge piece of the problem.

[DoreenMichele]

I honestly fail to see a connection between your statement and mine.

I don't generally drink alcohol and I have a permanently compromised immune system, so hanging out at bars isn't some normal part of my life. So I don't understand what you feel is so essential to "here's when we'll open the bars."

Also, a bar up the street from me has already re-opened and (when they were just doing take-out beer) I posted a photo of their take-out beer sign to the local subreddit I run at some point, even though I don't personally drink. So please don't take this as me being a tea-totaller who is dismissing alcohol when I say "I don't get it. I honestly don't get it. Can you please clarify?"

[SpicyLemonZest]

I guess I'm not sure how to respond. It's not about bars specifically; it's about returning to an environment where people are free to crowd about if they'd like. As long as there are top-down rules to micromanage where I can go and how many others I can go with, the problem isn't solved. "Maybe we should just get used to those rules" isn't a solution - in all but the hardest-hit areas, the rules are most of the problem!

[DoreenMichele]

top-down rules to micromanage

I don't operate that way. Generally speaking, that's antithetical to how I operate in life.

I think if we have more support for remote work for people who want/need it and more support for options like Little Caesar's pizza portal which allows for contactless take-out, that helps make life possible for the most vulnerable people. Given how long people are living and our success in keeping alive a lot of people with incurable conditions who need permanent accommodation, this doesn't impinge on the people who want to do a group activity.

If anything, it frees up space for them to have their group thing without so much exposure to random people so their group thing is safer to attend.

I had someone on HN say something to me once about wanting to "hug their mom" and how my comment on HN was somehow antithetical to that. I live with my two adult sons and I have a permanently compromised immune system. I feel strongly that being exposed to "your group" is generally less problematic than being exposed constantly to random stranger with god-knows-what other strains.

I'm not at all arguing for denying people the ability to go out. I've, in fact, been given hell for making statements about not liking mask mandates and not liking the lock down.

My Walmart is closed at night right now and before it closed I and my sons were managing germ control in part by doing a lot of our shopping at 2am when the Walmart was dead. And that's not possible now and going to Walmart is currently one of the most hazardous things we have to do.

So I'm not all interested in doing what you are seemingly arguing against. And I don't see how it has anything at all to do with what I am advocating for and stated above.

Edit:

I feel like you added this after I began typing and I didn't initially see it: "Maybe we should just get used to those rules" isn't a solution - in all but the hardest-hit areas, the rules are most of the problem!

I don't disagree with that. Reading into my statement that I am advocating for "just get used to the rules" is wildly misinterpreting my comment. I said nothing about accepting our current lock down rules at all.

[SpicyLemonZest]

Maybe I misunderstood, because I'm on board with everything you're describing here. Most people I've seen who say they don't want to return to "business as usual" mean that we should just have restrictions in place forever, but if we're just talking about additive changes to let people avoid diseases if they'd like, I'm all in favor.

[ffdjjjffjj]

Everyone wants to return to normal, but there’s still a pandemic. “We’ll open the bars when it’s safe” isn’t a satisfying answer but what good would lying about a timeline be?

[SpicyLemonZest]

It establishes a standard for when we need to start looking at alternate plans. The virus isn't going to completely disappear, so there's a very serious risk that "we'll open bars when it's safe" will end up meaning "we'll never open bars". Just look at Australia, where Victoria has been under strict curfew for something like 5 months this year because the only standard they set for leaving is "safe". If our plan is going to end up meaning bars stay closed for a decade, we need to throw it out and come up with an alternate plan, or we're just going to end up with no plan as people and politicians lose their tolerance for further restrictions.

[harambae]

I'm glad someone else realizes that individuals (outside unusually-nerdy HN readers... myself included) do not have infinite patience for enjoyable things being shut down. The DGAF attitude will hit a tipping point whether we want it to or not and jailing 40% of the population isn't possible, even in America with it's love of outsized incarceration [0].

[0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2...

[talentedcoin]

Idk. I think framing the problem in this way is missing a huge piece of the problem. Just because people want or demand a thing doesn’t mean that we as a society are going to be able to deliver it.

I think we need to think seriously about the fact that, even if COVID goes away, lockdowns like this could become part of the “new normal” (?) anyways. And by the time that happens a lot of affected businesses will already be gone or have to change.

[SpicyLemonZest]

You're not entirely wrong, but the flip side of the coin is that people won't comply with a rule just because we as a society would like them to. People will lock down for immediate severe outbreaks, as they used to for polio, but the longer lockdowns continue the more people will just say "no" and ignore them.

[eanzenberg]

I can definitely envision fascist-lite elected officials using lockdowns in the future willy nilly, because the people precisely have gone along with it.

[DoreenMichele]

To be clear, I'm actually arguing for finding solutions so that we can put a stop to such things.

I have zero interest in giving government officials any excuse to do such things. Finding actual solutions that actually work is the strongest possible means to combat such an outcome.

[shajznnckfke]

I do think there will be a permanent adjustment in society to deal with the risks created by this type of virus in the future. Tell everyone to start wearing masks as soon as the outbreak starts, instead of telling them that masks are only for idiots and healthcare workers. Isolate travelers from affected areas before it has a chance to spread, and so on. But I also expect that just about every occupation from industries that are shut down will continue to exist in this new world.

[DoreenMichele]

Well, I didn't say anything about eliminating jobs. Just that I, personally, see no reason to tie the idea of going back to work to a vaccine.

I think we would do better to look for germ control solutions that are already proven and available currently. As one example, ordering online or calling ahead and picking up is a way to support local eateries while minimizing the spread of germs. I'm a big fan of Little Caesar's pizza portal as a contactless pick-up option and I don't see any reason we can't actively promote such existing practices right here, right now, instead of seemingly hanging all hopes on "there will be a vaccine and after it comes out, we can just keep doing the same things the same way."

That seems like needless suffering to me. We don't know how long that will take and, in the mean time, people need to survive right now. Not having any money/resources at all coming in for X months is not survivable for most people who don't have savings and the like to live off of.

[shajznnckfke]

I agree that we should try to adjust to the world we find ourselves in, but there’s only so much problem-solving effort to go around, and I think most people are already trying to do what they can. It’s tough to reshape society on a dime.

[DoreenMichele]

I, personally, think there is insufficient focus on doing what is doable in the here and now. Society is reshaped all the time, every day, by every choice ever person makes. If we aren't even trying to push it in X direction because we are spending our energy justifying not bothering to try that -- "because it's too tough" -- then that strikes me as self-fulfilling prophecy.

I get really tired of self-fulfilling prophecy. Given what is at stake, I think we can and should do better than simply justifying our failures to adequately rise to the occasion.