[cyjyar2]

I have seen a number of China-related thread reach HN's frontpage, with lots of comments, only to sink 10 pages within minutes. I believe that some users are gaming the auto-moderation tools by engaging in a downvote war in these threads to have them marked as flamebait and downranked. It doesn't have to be only paid trolls, just enough people unaware of the Tien An Men massacre and Mao's crimes.

Sadly this makes it look like HN is soft-censoring China-related threads...If I were a mod (and if I'm not wrong) I'd be very curious of the downvoting patterns in these cases.

[dang]

I'm a mod, we've looked closely at the downvoting patterns, and the conclusion is that the community is simply divided. Users have different views because of their different backgrounds. That simple explanation is more than adequate to explain what we see here.

Unfortunately, when people encounter opposing views, they don't think of this simple explanation. Instead, they think nobody could possibly hold that opposing view in good faith, and therefore they must be an astroturfer, a shill, a Communist agent, a manipulator, a spy.

There is a great deal of previous discussion on this topic. If you want further explanation see these links:

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a...

If you take a look and still have a question that isn't answered there, let me know what it is.

[mdorazio]

dang, I think I and a lot of other HN users would appreciate it if you actually posted the results of this investigation somewhere so we have real data to look at. It's pretty clear that it at least seems like it's more than just different views at work here. When you say repeatedly that you've spent countless hours looking at the data and didn't find anything, but then don't share that data it gets really frustrating for users.

[dang]

We can't. It would be a huge privacy violation, and it would give anyone who actually did want to manipulate this site a handbook on how to do it.

But there are deeper reasons. I wrote about this the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24356496.

[mdorazio]

I completely understand that, but I also hope you understand how it looks from the HN user perspective. There's a sentiment that feels legitimate, but 1) it's not possible for users to prove or disprove because the data is impossible to obtain, 2) the mods tell us it's unfounded because data, but the data can't be shared, and 3) the mods also tell us if we think the concern is legitimate, prove it, except that because of (1) it's not possible to prove without basically doxxing other users.

I think you addressed it well in the link you provided, especially with the SSM argument, but I have two soft suggestions for consideration:

1) I would personally like to see a HN rule implemented that requires you to post a reply to a comment before you can downvote or flag it. It's probably naive of me to think this would help stop brigading, but it seems like a logical extension of the current downvote setup.

2) I'd like to see equal treatment in terms of flagging both pro and anti- country/political platform comments. If politically charged posts are consistently turning into flame wars in the comments, which seems to be the case, the only way to address the issue without pissing off one set of people or another is to pretty much ban such comments in both directions. I know, easier said than done.

In any case, I think you're doing a great job and I appreciate how tough it is to moderate HN with the level of egos and strong opinions (mine included) on here. Thanks for keeping HN civil.

[dang]

Yeah I hear you about the frustration. Btw I just came back here to add that there is a way to get at least some partial satisfaction: if you see some specific case that you're worried about you can email [e-mail]. We always look into it, and we're usually able to say something without giving away the store. Just be aware that the HN inbox is brutal, so if something requires time to look into or properly reply to, you may have to wait a while. We look at most emails as they come in, though, in case there's something that needs taking care of immediately.

---

The idea of requiring a reply for downvotes or flags comes up a lot and I'm sorry to disappoint, but we're not going to do it, because all of our experience is that it would just lead to a lot of low-quality replies.

In terms of equal treatment of flagging: flags are almost all done by users and we can't control what they do, so this is beyond our power. When we do intervene, we definitely try to do it in an even handed way [1], so if you see an unfairly-unbalanced situation, emailing [e-mail] is also an option.

[1] Anyone who bothers to slog through https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... will see, for example, that we moderate all varieties of nationalistic attack and don't play favorites.