[LudwigNagasena]

I don’t like Noah but I agree with his point that Graeber’s book, which is named Debt, is actually not about debt and doesn’t explain debt much and even misrepresents modern economics. It is just a topic that lets Graeber go on tangents and moralize.

[tacheiordache]

Modern economics is twisted in such ways that Graeber attempts to demistify it. Honestly, have you read the book?

[LudwigNagasena]

Economics is a complicated topic (though I wouldn’t use the word “twisted”) that consists of many things and people get a PhD to specialize and understand a small part of it (some type of macro, micro, labor, industrial organization, econometrics, etc).

Making factual errors that economic historians have to point out doesn’t help to demistify it, unfortunately.

I also wouldn’t expect someone who probably wouldn’t be able to pass the Ideological Turing Test to “demistify” the opposite view. Graeber didn’t know much modern economics and can’t adequately engage with the economic literature, he made foolish claims like “ economists still teach their students that the primary economic role of government—many would insist, its only really proper economic role—is to guarantee price stability.”

I am not saying there is nothing to criticize in economics, but to criticize something you need to understand it, so naturally some of the best criticisms of economics come from economists and adjacent professions, and that’s how the field keeps changing and developing. Just like any other academic discipline.

[pydry]

>Making factual errors that economic historians have to point out doesn’t help to demistify it, unfortunately.

That's exactly what he was doing. The fallacious story he debunks about money appearing naturally via barter was one I first read in an economics textbook (Mankiw I think).

[LudwigNagasena]

I ctrl+f'ed "barter" in Mankiw's Principles of Economics and couldn't find any topic on the origin of money. I think the modern theory on the origin of money economists generally support is a tad more complicated than a strawman Graeber builds and destroys in his book.

[pydry]

It's usually an offhand story used to introduce the concept of money that economics textbooks don't spend a lot of time on. It is mentioned in Mankiw (mentioned under "double coincidence of wants"), but again, not as a core of its analytical framework, but rather as a "just so" introduction to the topic. I don't think it was even cited.

Modern economists really don't tend to spend a lot of time on historical analysis. That includes the default theory on the origin of money. This is a point that this example was supposed to illustrate. It is far from the only one but it has the benefit of being fairly clear cut.

They do tend to spend their time on polemics (driven by the way politics has driven the profession and the monetary incentives therein) or building elaborate mathematical models instead (driven by what i'd call 'hard science envy').

It wouldn't be the only academic profession to have intellectual blind spots, of course, and Graeber wouldn't be the first person to point out this one. Niall Ferguson, a more right-leaning historian/economist, has also made this point.

[LudwigNagasena]

No, you are wrong, it is not mentioned in Mankiw. You are also wrong that modern economists don’t spend time on historical analysis, as there is a whole discipline devoted to it and it is DeLong, the professor of economic history, who spent a lot of time arguing against Graeber.

[albatruss]

I'm going to echo the parent's sentiment here:

> Honestly, have you read the book?

Because the quote you provided is not from the book being discussed.

[LudwigNagasena]

I know it is not from the book being discussed and that’s why I didn’t say it is. That’s all I can say to this low-effort bad-faith response.

[albatruss]

You could confirm or deny whether or not you have actually read the book, having presented yourself two posts above as someone in a position to critique it. Is misrepresentation of expertise and talking past the people you're responding to not also a low-effort, bad faith act?

[LudwigNagasena]

It seems pretty obvious that I have read the book if I have an opinion about it. I don't start asking whether you have finished high school and whether you passed any reading comprehension or IQ tests. I think such questions are insulting and they don't lead to a fruitful conversation.